That old chestnut - contractors and oncall

[psychocandy]

I don't disagree with this, however consider:

If giving an exploitative client a few extra hours of your time will "build a business relationship", are you sure that you actually want that business relationship and additional future work from such a client?

Maybe, if you're desperate for work and don't mind (or can at least tolerate) being exploited and having unreasonable expectation imposed upon you. However, if you're not so desperate for work and can afford to wait until a better opportunity comes along then I, personally, wouldn't want that relationship and work from an abusive client.

I suppose each individual has to make their own decisions on this.

Important word here is "exploitative" client. I agree it their twats then go for it.

I had one client who moaned when I left site at lunchtime to go to the gym (yes he really thought he could tell me to stay on site when he wanted). Then moaned constantly about everything. Asked me to do on call temporarily for a few weeks for free until a new permie got up to speed. Never in a million years.

Then again, current client asked me to work bank holiday. My expectation (and contractual deal) was one day. Client offered me one day PLUS a day TOIL - they didnt have to do this of course.

[billybiro]

Important word here is "exploitative" client. I agree it their twats then go for it.

I had one client who moaned when I left site at lunchtime to go to the gym (yes he really thought he could tell me to stay on site when he wanted). Then moaned constantly about everything. Asked me to do on call temporarily for a few weeks for free until a new permie got up to speed. Never in a million years.

Then again, current client asked me to work bank holiday. My expectation (and contractual deal) was one day. Client offered me one day PLUS a day TOIL - they didnt have to do this of course.

Exactly. The same as my other post.

In a nutshell: If I scratch your back, I'll expect you to scratch mine. However, if I scratch your back and you stick a knife in mine, I won't be scratching your back ever again.

[Lance]

Agreed its not ideal - and you've got to trust the client.

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

[Old Greg]

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

False rather than fraudulent, I think.

[Lance]

False rather than fraudulent, I think.

if the finance department realise that an invoice is submitted for work not done they might well use the word 'fraud'.
The manager who suggested the use of toil might prefer the word 'deferred'.
'False' is a fair word in the context as well.

'Correct', 'valid', and 'genuine' are words that wouldn't apply.

[psychocandy]

I disagree. Trust has nothing to do with it. They’re asking you to submit fraudulent invoices (ie invoices for work you haven’t done).

Well timesheets not invoices. Its PS inside IR35 anyway.

So if I submit a timesheet for 5 days instead of 4 when I wasn't there the monday whos going to care? Agency wont know or care thats for sure.

[psychocandy]

if the finance department realise that an invoice is submitted for work not done they might well use the word 'fraud'.
The manager who suggested the use of toil might prefer the word 'deferred'.
'False' is a fair word in the context as well.

'Correct', 'valid', and 'genuine' are words that wouldn't apply.

I dont think so. For a start its hardly likely that the finance dept know when Im there and when Im not, is it?

And anyway, if they dont like it then my client manager has got the issue not me.

[TonyF]

its hardly likely that the finance dept know when Im there and when Im not, is it?

If they did know, would the timesheet be right or wrong?

[psychocandy]

If they did know, would the timesheet be right or wrong?

I see where you're going with this but dept want contractor to be on-call. They've worked out a deal which involves TOIL.
Finance dept are hardly going to moan about it. If they do, thats for dept to sort out with their own finance dept - nothing to do with me.

Its the same if manager does same with permie surely? Says because you worked extra feel free to go home at lunchtime today - they're not going to phone the finance department and ask they're permission are they? Or say do you mind paying x the full salary this month even though I'm letting him go early today?

[TonyF]

I see where you're going with this but dept want contractor to be on-call. They've worked out a deal which involves TOIL.
Finance dept are hardly going to moan about it. If they do, thats for dept to sort out with their own finance dept - nothing to do with me.

Its the same if manager does same with permie surely? Says because you worked extra feel free to go home at lunchtime today - they're not going to phone the finance department and ask they're permission are they? Or say do you mind paying x the full salary this month even though I'm letting him go early today?

So you're equating the way that you contract as being a permanent employee. Do you do the same for outside IR35 roles or is it just for this one?