Contracting or Perm??

[malvolio]

Erm... Its linked to salary. Read the definition of salary.

Either a troll or ignorant. Best ignored I feel...

The only snag is, he's a good explanation of why we get such grief from HMG.

[pauldee]

... and it happens when the big project is canned, the client has enough implementation to fulfill requirements and also during a take over of one firm by another.

Do you have reference or source for this statement?
It would be interesting for us to quote to others. I remember the time when you worked 3 months in financial services, then you were pass your confirmation (circa 2002).

I spoke to a ex-colleague in a full time job sometime ago (2016) and I was shocked that they had initial promotion of 6 months and then because of difficulties with the line manager, their probation was extended another 4 months. My ex-colleague eventually jack the job, after my contract ended and then became a contractor. The consequences of contract and permanent are not stark as they used to be nowadays.

It's the law so I guess there's a reference for it somewhere It used to be one year but the Tories took it to two, I can only guess after lobbying from industry/business. 3 months probation is standard but pretty much meaningless, I don't think you have any more rights between that 3 months and the 2 years - I could be wrong about that.

I know one large tech company in Manchester where the first few months is basically your job interview. They're continuously taking in massive intakes of people, it seems almost anyone gets an interview and you have to be pretty terrible to fail. But after about 6 months only one person in that intake will still be there. I've heard stories about groups of people being taken into the manager's office at 5pm on a Friday and told to collect their things and not come back. When you bear in mind it's likely these people left a decent job to go there it's massively unethical. I have to say I've not heard this about the dev department in particular, but it is rife throughout the rest of the company. I imagine it's worst in sales.

[HugeWhale]

I know one large tech company in Manchester where the first few months is basically your job interview. They're continuously taking in massive intakes of people, it seems almost anyone gets an interview and you have to be pretty terrible to fail. But after about 6 months only one person in that intake will still be there. I've heard stories about groups of people being taken into the manager's office at 5pm on a Friday and told to collect their things and not come back. When you bear in mind it's likely these people left a decent job to go there it's massively unethical. I have to say I've not heard this about the dev department in particular, but it is rife throughout the rest of the company. I imagine it's worst in sales.

This is appalling. Name them.

[pauldee]

This is appalling. Name them.

I would love to but I'm sure you can appreciate why I'm hesitant to.

[LondonPM1]

Hmmm...

Don't really understand contracting, do you. But thanks for contributing.

Guys guys guys please

I know it's a lovely idea to think that us 'contractors' are entrepreneurial sorts, privileged to be the directors of our own limited companies, and that makes us a different animal to those 'permies'. When I say in practice they are much the same I mean:

• We still set an alarm in the morning
• We still go to the same place 5 days a week (mostly)
• We still need to attend meetings
• Still need to pop out for lunch

Yes, yes, yes , there is some admin rubbish, so we need to do a Vat return every so often and we don't need to go to the 1 hour performance review thing annually (I know many 'permies' who also haven't done this in years). But we still log on, and slave away to get money into our account one way or another. Dress it up how you like (if that helps you avoid the reality).
And indeed, we are at risk of getting life behind bars for using the word 'wage' or 'employer' (definition of wage from Google - "a fixed regular payment earned for work or services, typically paid on a daily or weekly basis").

Let me put it another way, if an unwitting party were to sit down in your building for a week, would he be able to determine who is a contractor and who is a permie? (without being informed). I know in my environment, he most certainly would not.

I have to say that the points that are raised here are relevant and are worthwhile discussing

Given this is professional I would be interested in a structured response to this. His view resonates with mine

[northernladuk]

I have to say that the points that are raised here are relevant and are worthwhile discussing

Given this is professional I would be interested in a structured response to this. His view resonates with mine

We know this.

https://forums.contractoruk.com/busi...ml#post2492925

[mattfx]

I have to say that the points that are raised here are relevant and are worthwhile discussing

Given this is professional I would be interested in a structured response to this. His view resonates with mine

• We still set an alarm in the morning
• We still go to the same place 5 days a week (mostly)
• We still need to attend meetings
• Still need to pop out for lunch

Let me put it another way, if an unwitting party were to sit down in your building for a week, would he be able to determine who is a contractor and who is a permie? (without being informed). I know in my environment, he most certainly would not.

Okay then, off we go:

1) Yes, we do. But most permies set the alarm and get on the train or in the car for MAX 1 hour (some more for very high paid / niche roles) and then roll up to work. Contractors are often having to find gigs 100's of miles away from home, or even outside the UK. Their alarms are going off a long way away from their families, for niche specialist roles most permies couldn't do.

2) Difference is, we have absolutely no guarantee that when we turn up on day 3 out of 5, we will have a duty to perform on day 4. Unless you're so far inside IR35 that you have travelled up Mr Hammonds rear cavity and are beginning to see daylight at the other end.

3) I don't. Participation in BS meetings is entirely optional. I get asked to attend and if I have nothing to say or no meaningful input I decline. No-one can force me to go, and so far, no-one has. In permieland I had a mandatory Monday Meeting I could never escape and I hated it. One of the reasons for contracting. If you don't have the balls to say "no" then that's on you and once again, you're inside IR35.

4) Every human needs to eat for nourishment so I'm not entirely sure how you're arguing this. However if you're talking about breaks, I chose exactly when I take mine and how long for. I ensure I do the hours my contract requires because I am not on deliverables, turn up at a time to suit and leave once I am done. You can't do that in permie world with "lunch rotas" and your boss making sure you stick to them.

5) About distinguishing a contractor from a permie; Yep, anyone who visited my office would know I was a contractor because I make a big point of having a "contractor" pass, not a staff pass, and placing on a lanyard that in red and white writing over the band says "CONTRACTOR" - as should you. But then again, we've already established you're so far inside IR35 that you may as well be a permie because frankly, you'd probably be taxed less and take home more that way. Oh, and finally, I wear a suit here every day when all the other permies are walking around in polo's. I could come in wearing jeans but I elect to keep myself a cut above the permie tractors. So not only does my pass give it away, but so does my general appearance.

It's people like you that are causing us all of these damn IR35 reviews aimed at the private sector. Start acting like a business and stop acting like an employee - it puts a bad name over all of us.

[malvolio]

Okay then, off we go:

1) Yes, we do. But most permies set the alarm and get on the train or in the car for MAX 1 hour (some more for very high paid / niche roles) and then roll up to work. Contractors are often having to find gigs 100's of miles away from home, or even outside the UK. Their alarms are going off a long way away from their families, for niche specialist roles most permies couldn't do.

2) Difference is, we have absolutely no guarantee that when we turn up on day 3 out of 5, we will have a duty to perform on day 4. Unless you're so far inside IR35 that you have travelled up Mr Hammonds rear cavity and are beginning to see daylight at the other end.

3) I don't. Participation in BS meetings is entirely optional. I get asked to attend and if I have nothing to say or no meaningful input I decline. No-one can force me to go, and so far, no-one has. In permieland I had a mandatory Monday Meeting I could never escape and I hated it. One of the reasons for contracting. If you don't have the balls to say "no" then that's on you and once again, you're inside IR35.

4) Every human needs to eat for nourishment so I'm not entirely sure how you're arguing this. However if you're talking about breaks, I chose exactly when I take mine and how long for. I ensure I do the hours my contract requires because I am not on deliverables, turn up at a time to suit and leave once I am done. You can't do that in permie world with "lunch rotas" and your boss making sure you stick to them.

5) About distinguishing a contractor from a permie; Yep, anyone who visited my office would know I was a contractor because I make a big point of having a "contractor" pass, not a staff pass, and placing on a lanyard that in red and white writing over the band says "CONTRACTOR" - as should you. But then again, we've already established you're so far inside IR35 that you may as well be a permie because frankly, you'd probably be taxed less and take home more that way. Oh, and finally, I wear a suit here every day when all the other permies are walking around in polo's. I could come in wearing jeans but I elect to keep myself a cut above the permie tractors. So not only does my pass give it away, but so does my general appearance.

It's people like you that are causing us all of these damn IR35 reviews aimed at the private sector. Start acting like a business and stop acting like an employee - it puts a bad name over all of us.

WHS. And what I said too.

If you don't understand the difference, please don't presume to lecture those of us who do and those of us still trying to find out.

[l35kee]

Okay then, off we go:

1) Yes, we do. But most permies set the alarm and get on the train or in the car for MAX 1 hour (some more for very high paid / niche roles) and then roll up to work. Contractors are often having to find gigs 100's of miles away from home, or even outside the UK. Their alarms are going off a long way away from their families, for niche specialist roles most permies couldn't do.

Travel time means nothing. Most of the permies at my old place travelled in longer than the contractors. Can't use time for either argument.

3) I don't. Participation in BS meetings is entirely optional. I get asked to attend and if I have nothing to say or no meaningful input I decline. No-one can force me to go, and so far, no-one has. In permieland I had a mandatory Monday Meeting I could never escape and I hated it. One of the reasons for contracting. If you don't have the balls to say "no" then that's on you and once again, you're inside IR35.

Depending on the personality of the person. As a permie I declined meetings that didn't have a stated intention, or where me attending was of no use! I wish more people in general did this.

4) Every human needs to eat for nourishment so I'm not entirely sure how you're arguing this. However if you're talking about breaks, I chose exactly when I take mine and how long for. I ensure I do the hours my contract requires because I am not on deliverables, turn up at a time to suit and leave once I am done. You can't do that in permie world with "lunch rotas" and your boss making sure you stick to them.

Depends on the role. For me it's a matter of courtesy to work alongside the hours of the people who require information from me, and vice versa.

5) About distinguishing a contractor from a permie; Yep, anyone who visited my office would know I was a contractor because I make a big point of having a "contractor" pass, not a staff pass, and placing on a lanyard that in red and white writing over the band says "CONTRACTOR" - as should you. But then again, we've already established you're so far inside IR35 that you may as well be a permie because frankly, you'd probably be taxed less and take home more that way. Oh, and finally, I wear a suit here every day when all the other permies are walking around in polo's. I could come in wearing jeans but I elect to keep myself a cut above the permie tractors. So not only does my pass give it away, but so does my general appearance.

This is awesome. I make it a point to introduce myself as a contractor. I was about to go order a contractor lanyard, but I think I might just go and get my LTD name on one instead (is a personalised luncbox too far?) :P

[mattfx]

Depending on the personality of the person. As a permie I declined meetings that didn't have a stated intention, or where me attending was of no use! I wish more people in general did this.

Depends on the role. For me it's a matter of courtesy to work alongside the hours of the people who require information from me, and vice versa.

This is awesome. I make it a point to introduce myself as a contractor. I was about to go order a contractor lanyard, but I think I might just go and get my LTD name on one instead (is a personalised luncbox too far?) :P

OMG Yes with the meeting thing. People need to stop making meetings, or meetings about meetings, or meetings to discuss the pre meeting about the meeting! It does my head in.

Don't get me wrong, I do tend to do 9-5.30 but there are times when that really doesn't suit me - it's nice not having to ask for the time but actually just informing someone when you will be around, definitely a big difference.

The contractor lanyard is indeed a thing of outstanding natural beauty. It's like a status symbol and subtle middle finger all in one!

Personalised lunchbox definitely isn't too far. Contractor at my last place had a tie pin with his company name embossed on it. No joke.