I have a contract but no work

[Denny]

Finding there is no work to do when you arrive despite being told you were required 'urgently' has happened on most of my contracts. There are plenty of things to do in an office, you'll come up with some im sure. It certainly beats working for a living.

Ive found its generally a combination of the client being composed largely of hopeless middle management types (none of whom seem to be responsible for anything, director of synergy 3rd class, that kind of thing), and the agent simply lying about the 'urgent' part cos they want you on site quickly for some reason - maybe something to do with the agents targets for that year, or maybe they think the quicker you're there the less likely you are to back out in favour of another gig or something, who knows.

Keep your head down, don't make it too obvious you are doing nothing to the bitter stressed permies, hope it lasts. Oh and do your hours. I don't know why but even if there is nothing to do, going home 10 mins early is especially annoying to the permies. They're funny that way.

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I assume you are inside IR35 or going through a brolly, If not, and you pay divis as a real contractor I would go home and not bill for the time until the work starts as listed on your SOW, otherwise you might find yourself in hot water with IR if an investigation ensues. Being genuinely IR35 exempt is about billing for your work not your time so if there is no work, even if the client should have given you some, there is no fee you can feasibly charge otherwise the risk factor that is a necessary characteristic of IR35 exemption is just not there and instead implied MOO kicks in.

[autodial]

#

I assume you are inside IR35 or going through a brolly, If not, and you pay divis as a real contractor I would go home and not bill for the time until the work starts as listed on your SOW, otherwise you might find yourself in hot water with IR if an investigation ensues. Being genuinely IR35 exempt is about billing for your work not your time so if there is no work, even if the client should have given you some, there is no fee you can feasibly charge otherwise the risk factor that is a necessary characteristic of IR35 exemption is just not there and instead implied MOO kicks in.

Well spotted Denny.

[VectraMan]

I assume you are inside IR35 or going through a brolly, If not, and you pay divis as a real contractor I would go home and not bill for the time until the work starts as listed on your SOW, otherwise you might find yourself in hot water with IR if an investigation ensues. Being genuinely IR35 exempt is about billing for your work not your time so if there is no work, even if the client should have given you some, there is no fee you can feasibly charge otherwise the risk factor that is a necessary characteristic of IR35 exemption is just not there and instead implied MOO kicks in.

It depends on what "no work" actually means. If you're part of a team, then being available to help and talk to other team members is part of your role, and if you only turn up to do the actual work that's put in front of you and aren't there when other team members might need you, then you're not fulfilling the customer requirements.

Doing what you're given to do rather than deciding for yourself gets you into D&C trouble instead.

It's almost as if this IR35 lark is unworkable.

I told him there isn't much to do, he agreed and we both agreed that was the nature of this kind of role. Sometimes there is, mostly there is not. The rate is not bad at all, keeps me happy!

Case in point. The client wants you around, he doesn't really mind that you don't always have work to do. Giving the client what he wants is what service companies are all about.

I did do a fair bit of looking busy in the early part of my last contract. To be honest it was a fairly crap rate so decided I was going to do full days to make up for it.

[TracyTrace]

Services vs Products

I keep reading about IR35 rules and can anyone enlighten me on if there is a distinction made between a person providing services and another delivering a physical product?

The idea that one is not working unless they are producing a specific deliverable simply doesn't work in a service environment. Especially where most of the work exists in your head anyway.

I had a meeting with Sunday Solutions and was asked 'Would you have to call in if you were not coming in to work?' I said 'Yes'. He said 'Then you might not be IR35 compliant because a painter wouldn't have to call in sick'

That makes no sense to me. Anyone working in a professional capacity simply wouldn't get repeat work if they weren't accountable to anyone, contractor or not.

How is it that contractors providing 'intellectual' services (for lack of a better word at this point) are being held to the same arbitrary standards as those who have specific physical deliverables?

[DeadKenny]

Surely a painter would still contact their client if they are not going to turn up that day? I'd be pretty annoyed if I was waiting at home for a painter who never turned up when agreed.

The way I see it is surely you just need to make it clear when you are available for work, rather than it being a situation where you are expected to be in every day at set hours regardless of the work. Though reading this thread it sounds like the latter is more the case (and therefore at risk of IR35?). I can see the latter is less likely to annoy permies compared to an 'outside IR35' contractor who just turns up when they want.

Perhaps all you need is for the contract to not mention expected working hours at all, just a deliverable? The tax man I assume is hardly going to grill the client about your working hours?

[Denny]

It depends on what "no work" actually means. If you're part of a team, then being available to help and talk to other team members is part of your role, and if you only turn up to do the actual work that's put in front of you and aren't there when other team members might need you, then you're not fulfilling the customer requirements.

Doing what you're given to do rather than deciding for yourself gets you into D&C trouble instead.

It's almost as if this IR35 lark is unworkable.

:

As an IR35 exempt contract, make your mobile phone or home e-mail your best friend. There is no merit in your argument. If the deliverables cannot be delivered at this point in time, then being available to speak to about them hardly requires you to be on site twiddling your thumbs.

If I was in your position, I would be at home, mobile phone and business addy e-mail on red alert for the client, and actually spending my time working on my other client accounts, if I had some going at the time, swotting up on the new job or else I would be sipping tea and smoking endless fags toiling over my accountancy record keeping or reworking my marketing literature or even getting in touch with new potential clients. How do you think other businesses operate that are not subject to this constant 'are we or aren't we real businesses' scrutiny?

What's wrong with taking a call at 4pm after doing SFA all day and then starting work afterwards to earn your daily fee? Why do you assume that your work must be carried out during standard office hours, unless it's impossible not to do it then. If that is the case, then you will surely be inside IR35 or at greater risk of this being so.

[DeadKenny]

What's wrong with taking a call at 4pm after doing SFA all day and then starting work afterwards to earn your daily fee? Why do you assume that your work must be carried out during standard office hours, unless it's impossible not to do it then. If that is the case, then you will surely be inside IR35 or at greater risk of this being so.

How easy is it though to get a client who's willing to let you work whatever hours you like and/or carry out work off-site? I know that's exactly the kind of restriction you want to avoid, but many companies like to have everyone (permies and contractors) in during office hours, even if they're doing SFA all day.

[Denny]

How easy is it though to get a client who's willing to let you work whatever hours you like and/or carry out work off-site? I know that's exactly the kind of restriction you want to avoid, but many companies like to have everyone (permies and contractors) in during office hours, even if they're doing SFA all day.

Then you are inside IR35, make no mistake about that. Therefore, you may as well resign yourself to that fact and keep to the client's imposed rules that imply MOO exists in your contract, even if it's not worded that way in your contract with the EB.

[XperTest]

Why is it that contractors are only considered to be a business when they work on a fixed price basis? Many service companies charge their services as time material. I know that IR35 prescribes all these methods of working rather than what is says in your contract but then HMRC hasn't been very successful at upholding this principle in court have they..? IT is just not always compatible with IR35 and I very much doubt that all the hardliners on this board when it comes to IR35 actually work exactly the way they claim, i.e. charge for a deliverable not time spent on it, work independently or even from home when they feel like it. If I hire you to write a piece of code before December 31st and you find out that the functional specs aren't even there for you to start until December 22th, will you just sit around the house at your own expense for a couple of weeks? If I then ask you to come in to do some other work in the meantime (perhaps writing the specs) that wasn't in the initial contract does that mean you are now under my control whereas before you weren't, so risking your IR35 excempt status? The IT world I work in is not the type of environment where I would want to agree beforehand to limit myself to a said deliverable at a set (total) amount. Firstly, the customer probably doesn't even know what they want at this point in time. Secondly, prior stages in the development process are bound to run behind schedule causing me to have to reschedule my work all the time (at my own expense?). Thirdly, there will be pressure to do work outside of the scope of what was initially agreed due to scope creep. Fourthly, most projects nowadays work iteratively to deal with some of these problems. If you just focus on delivering predefined deliverables you are being completely inflexible and this will no doubt harm your business in the long run. As long as IR35 does not take into account the dynamics of the service industry in which we operate and a very small minority indeed has been caught by IR35 why do some insist on arguing that everybody should work in exactly the same way some (not all) small businesses operate even if in reality this is hardly a sustainable business strategy given how the IT world and more specifically the IT contracting world works?

[DodgyAgent]

Why is it that contractors are only considered to be a business when they work on a fixed price basis? Many service companies charge their services as time material. I know that IR35 prescribes all these methods of working rather than what is says in your contract but then HMRC hasn't been very successful at upholding this principle in court have they..? IT is just not always compatible with IR35 and I very much doubt that all the hardliners on this board when it comes to IR35 actually work exactly the way they claim, i.e. charge for a deliverable not time spent on it, work independently or even from home when they feel like it. If I hire you to write a piece of code before December 31st and you find out that the functional specs aren't even there for you to start until December 22th, will you just sit around the house at your own expense for a couple of weeks? If I then ask you to come in to do some other work in the meantime (perhaps writing the specs) that wasn't in the initial contract does that mean you are now under my control whereas before you weren't, so risking your IR35 excempt status? The IT world I work in is not the type of environment where I would want to agree beforehand to limit myself to a said deliverable at a set (total) amount. Firstly, the customer probably doesn't even know what they want at this point in time. Secondly, prior stages in the development process are bound to run behind schedule causing me to have to reschedule my work all the time (at my own expense?). Thirdly, there will be pressure to do work outside of the scope of what was initially agreed due to scope creep. Fourthly, most projects nowadays work iteratively to deal with some of these problems. If you just focus on delivering predefined deliverables you are being completely inflexible and this will no doubt harm your business in the long run. As long as IR35 does not take into account the dynamics of the service industry in which we operate and a very small minority indeed has been caught by IR35 why do some insist on arguing that everybody should work in exactly the same way some (not all) small businesses operate even if in reality this is hardly a sustainable business strategy given how the IT world and more specifically the IT contracting world works?

you are not related to Denny are you by any chance?