State of the Market

[edison]

Sorry, I didn't mean that people were not ideal to do such roles, I should have prefixed it: end clients are grouping roles Inside and Outside IR35 and the inside buckets seem to place people-managers into the Inside bucket. Managers, Project Manager, Programme Managers and the rest, rightly or wrongly. The bigger the organisation the worse and immovable this blanketing is.

Until not that long ago, it was practically unheard of to come across PMs and Programme Managers inside IR35. I worked at a client on multiple contracts between 2020 and 2022 and was surprised to hear of some PMs starting to be classed as inside.

This was a client that generally had a good understanding of IR35 (plenty of other outside contractors including me.) The thing that was strange is I couldn't really tell the difference between what the inside ones were doing compared to the outside ones.

[northernladuk]

Oh the smart thing is to operate as a proper business - the problem is that the nature of how we are recruited can make that very difficult.

You really need to be negotiating with the end client directly (without agency middle men) to get into that sort of position.

We've over this many times with GB. On our side we have always agreed that in some cases this is possible but for some reason GB is still on his soap box telling everyone that it's always possible and everyone should be doing it. Not once has he conceded that multi gigging is simply not possible in a vast majority of gigs. Generally when you are trying to argue facts with someone who's not willing to listen or concede then you are on a hiding to nowhere. Unfortunately he also doesn't realise that the blind approach he has also means his advice is suspect as it has no substance so isn't often helpful either.

[Skyliner33]

Long time user of this forum, name changed as my old username was to outing. I am someone who has run multiple contracts, making hay whilst the sun shines during the boom times. The last 3 years during Covid have been a boom (Well maybe not the first few months of 2020), I have never actively been looking for multiple contracts, it's just the way it ended up, thinking roles were finishing and getting headhunted for other work. Ended up doing 3 beginning of 2021, this was a bit too stressful though, and left one, ended up with 2 outside gigs, full remote, then client 2 contract finished July 2021, leaving me with client 1, did this till Mar 22, then thought the contract was finishing due to only getting rolling monthly contracts, headhunted for another role (Inside) took that and kept taking the renewal of the other one, ended up doing one inside and outside for the full financial year, (£400 outside, £700 inside). Then feb of this year both said we won't renew as the work has dried up, both contracts finished within 2 weeks in March. I'm fortunate I got a new roll before it finished, but there is a big change in the market I have noticed, I am UX and in 2021 I was getting multiple emails/calls a week and I wasn't even looking for work, I applied for about 20 jobs in March, got about 3/4 call backs, one interview, and I have that roll now, contract till end of the year, so maybe fortunate. I've decided to MVL my company and use the funds for the mortgage/house project. I will look back on 22/23 Financial year with fondness.

It depends on what you do for a roll, if you are Scrum/PO and meeting heavy then it would be very hard to juggle 2 contracts I think, I am now in a hybrid roll, London 2-3 days a week, so I won't be able to do 2 anymore, it is very much how it was before pandemic levels, commuting after 3 years full WFH is a shock.

Would I do 2 roles again in the future, yes, but would depend on the circumstances, and the client of course. I've been through bad times as a contractor before, 2008 recession, and of course we are on a downward trend again now with with Ukraine/Cost of living etc, these things come in waves and i'm sure there will be better times ahead again.

Sorry for the rambling

[edison]

Seem to be getting a few opportunities that ultimately end up as 'market testing' where the client had someone internal in mind all along. Bit gutted on one in particular where the day rate was 50% more than my current role, albeit inside. I was recommended to the recruiter who thought I was the perfect fit.

Waited about a week to hear a confirmed date for the interview then the recruiter said client had selected someone internal.

[eek]

Until not that long ago, it was practically unheard of to come across PMs and Programme Managers inside IR35. I worked at a client on multiple contracts between 2020 and 2022 and was surprised to hear of some PMs starting to be classed as inside.

This was a client that generally had a good understanding of IR35 (plenty of other outside contractors including me.) The thing that was strange is I couldn't really tell the difference between what the inside ones were doing compared to the outside ones.

It could be the team they are working with - the fear for most companies is that staff accidentally drag the contractor inside.

[edison]

This. Plus if people are struggling to find one contract then it is going to be twice as difficult to find two. Also more clients want to see you in the office some of the time. This would involve going dark on the other contract for a working day.

After my first experience of working two simultaneous contracts last year, I found it more difficult to adapt to in practice. I didn't have to work more than five days a week in total and was quite transparent with both clients about the fact I was working with two organisations.

Although I only had to go into the office about 2-3 times a month on average, it wasn't always practical to 'go dark' on the other client for a whole day. I tried to schedule meetings with both clients on different days when in the office but had emails to attend to that I couldn't just leave for a few days.

[TheGreenBastard]

it's always possible and everyone should be doing it. Not once has he conceded that multi gigging is simply not possible in a vast majority of gigs.

We'll need a direct quote - evidence if you will - that I ever made such a claim which your assertion of me "not willing to listen" comes from.

You're just upset I paint a contrasting image. You don't like the implication of my anecdote of running a business in relation to your own experience. You'll find you're the one and others amongst the forum's clique which invariable shoots down anyone who even mutters the immoral act of having multiple clients. I'm just here to tell the opposite story, by lived experience.

Given the market turmoil I think one of our approaches to business will win out, and suggesting multiple clients if/when you're capable (read: that doesn't mean it's for everybody) - is a good idea.

[SussexSeagull]

After my first experience of working two simultaneous contracts last year, I found it more difficult to adapt to in practice. I didn't have to work more than five days a week in total and was quite transparent with both clients about the fact I was working with two organisations.

Although I only had to go into the office about 2-3 times a month on average, it wasn't always practical to 'go dark' on the other client for a whole day. I tried to schedule meetings with both clients on different days when in the office but had emails to attend to that I couldn't just leave for a few days.

If both clients are aware of the situation then by all means go for it but I suspect most people singing the praises of doing it don't keep both clients informed of the situation.

[jamesbrown]

We'll need a direct quote - evidence if you will - that I ever made such a claim which your assertion of me "not willing to listen" comes from.

You're just upset I paint a contrasting image. You don't like the implication of my anecdote of running a business in relation to your own experience. You'll find you're the one and others amongst the forum's clique which invariable shoots down anyone who even mutters the immoral act of having multiple clients. I'm just here to tell the opposite story, by lived experience.

Given the market turmoil I think one of our approaches to business will win out, and suggesting multiple clients if/when you're capable (read: that doesn't mean it's for everybody) - is a good idea.

Multiple clients is a great idea, makes perfect sense when you have the time and interest. There's an enormous difference between having multiple clients and defrauding clients. Some of us go for the former, you go for the latter, largely because you're afraid of what they would say if they found out. You're disposable.

[northernladuk]

We'll need a direct quote - evidence if you will - that I ever made such a claim which your assertion of me "not willing to listen" comes from.

The paragraph below for example?

You're just upset I paint a contrasting image. You don't like the implication of my anecdote of running a business in relation to your own experience. You'll find you're the one and others amongst the forum's clique which invariable shoots down anyone who even mutters the immoral act of having multiple clients. I'm just here to tell the opposite story, by lived experience.

Given the market turmoil I think one of our approaches to business will win out, and suggesting multiple clients if/when you're capable (read: that doesn't mean it's for everybody) - is a good idea.

I've never been upset and often agree but temper that agreement with a huge dose of reality, which you never do. I think your model of running a business is absolutely fine and would love it to be more common place but the reality is that it isn't. There can only be a single digit percentage of gigs that this approach would work but you make out it's the only way we should all work.

But as I said 'Generally when you are trying to argue facts with someone who's not willing to listen or concede then you are on a hiding to nowhere.',

So let's leave this alone (yet again) and get back on topic.