State of the Market

[SussexSeagull]

New contractor devs recruited to my team, some have been fired and replaced for underperformance, some politics involved.

All are indian/pakistani. I remain the only British person on my team at my UK Government role (14 people on my team). In the wider project I think there are well over 100 people, I only know of two other British developers.

All roles are within the UK, nobody is allowed to work from overseas although it is remote.

I would accept the low rate theory but they're all contractors and the role was advertised at the same rate as everyone else.

If this is representative of the market as a whole then they're not outsourcing to India/Pakistan, people from India/Pakistan are moving to the UK and then are applying for contractor jobs here and being granted them.

The recruitment agency is all Indian staff.

If I wasn't there I expect they'd hold the standup in hindi. I've joined meetings before and heard them talking it.

What does this mean about the future of development roles within the UK?

I would take that to my MP, seriously. There is a review going on about the amount of Visas being issued for the IT Industry.

[siddhantkumar]

I would take that to my MP, seriously. There is a review going on about the amount of Visas being issued for the IT Industry.

I’m an Indian who has been living in this country for nearly 20 years. I originally came here on a high-skilled visa. Things have changed significantly since then! Nowadays, visa holders must have a job offer before they can be granted a visa, or they get transferred internally by companies like TCS, Infosys, or Wipro. They can’t switch jobs easily, so I doubt it’s newcomers taking contract positions.

Why is the Home Office allowing them to come over? They pay NHS fees on top of visa fees. The Immigration Health Surcharge is £1,035 per year for adults and £776 per child per year. This is in addition to the usual visa fee. The government is earning a huge amount from them and doesn’t want to lose this source of revenue. I blame Theresa May for this policy when she was leading the Home Office.

That said, I’m against the increase in constant, unchecked migration. Here are figures from the government showing how work visas have increased manyfold in the past few years, under the pretext of COVID-19 and Brexit. But I believe it’s primarily for generating extra revenue.


https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...the-uk-to-work

[SussexSeagull]

I’m an Indian who has been living in this country for nearly 20 years. I originally came here on a high-skilled visa. Things have changed significantly since then! Nowadays, visa holders must have a job offer before they can be granted a visa, or they get transferred internally by companies like TCS, Infosys, or Wipro. They can’t switch jobs easily, so I doubt it’s newcomers taking contract positions.

Why is the Home Office allowing them to come over? They pay NHS fees on top of visa fees. The Immigration Health Surcharge is £1,035 per year for adults and £776 per child per year. This is in addition to the usual visa fee. The government is earning a huge amount from them and doesn’t want to lose this source of revenue. I blame Theresa May for this policy when she was leading the Home Office.

That said, I’m against the increase in constant, unchecked migration. Here are figures from the government showing how work visas have increased manyfold in the past few years, under the pretext of COVID-19 and Brexit. But I believe it’s primarily for generating extra revenue.


https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...the-uk-to-work

Don't misunderstand me, they are here perfectly legally and it is certainly nothing personal against them. I am sure the surcharges you mention haven't gone unnoticed but they will soon be wiped out by he reduction in tax take and in some cases having today benefits when people are out of work.

[SchumiStars]

I’m an Indian who has been living in this country for nearly 20 years. I originally came here on a high-skilled visa. Things have changed significantly since then! Nowadays, visa holders must have a job offer before they can be granted a visa, or they get transferred internally by companies like TCS, Infosys, or Wipro. They can’t switch jobs easily, so I doubt it’s newcomers taking contract positions.

Why is the Home Office allowing them to come over? They pay NHS fees on top of visa fees. The Immigration Health Surcharge is £1,035 per year for adults and £776 per child per year. This is in addition to the usual visa fee. The government is earning a huge amount from them and doesn’t want to lose this source of revenue. I blame Theresa May for this policy when she was leading the Home Office.

That said, I’m against the increase in constant, unchecked migration. Here are figures from the government showing how work visas have increased manyfold in the past few years, under the pretext of COVID-19 and Brexit. But I believe it’s primarily for generating extra revenue.


https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...the-uk-to-work

I didn't know about the extra charges. Makes sense now. So the government are cleaning up more foreign money whilst at the same time believing the private sector will accommodate everyone.

And why wouldn't you want more people on IR35, these mugs will pay double NI of course.

[Fraidycat]

Jobserve showing 32,000 headline number.

Before Sunak called the election it was low 20s. During the election month, June, it fell to around 15K.

32K is still a bad number, but its notable because its mid August..

[Smartie]

Many of my teams over the past 10 years have been majority sub-continent roots, however they mostly had not just arrived to work here. Their families moved to the UK a long time ago.

So, you can't assume what you're saying here.

When I went to university in London, a very long time ago, I was very surprised at the number of Indian students on my IT course and in particular the number of Indian women.
In societies that are less equal, technical or professional skills such as engineering or medicine are the key to status and more equality for women.

Perhaps the answer is that more British Indian/Pakistani students are studying IT rather than interior design and classics?
It's been a growth area for decades and a sensible career choice.

New contractor devs recruited to my team, some have been fired and replaced for underperformance, some politics involved.

All are indian/pakistani. I remain the only British person on my team at my UK Government role (14 people on my team). In the wider project I think there are well over 100 people, I only know of two other British developers.

All roles are within the UK, nobody is allowed to work from overseas although it is remote.

I would accept the low rate theory but they're all contractors and the role was advertised at the same rate as everyone else.

If this is representative of the market as a whole then they're not outsourcing to India/Pakistan, people from India/Pakistan are moving to the UK and then are applying for contractor jobs here and being granted them.

The recruitment agency is all Indian staff.

If I wasn't there I expect they'd hold the standup in hindi. I've joined meetings before and heard them talking it.

What does this mean about the future of development roles within the UK?

[edison]

Many of my teams over the past 10 years have been majority sub-continent roots, however they mostly had not just arrived to work here. Their families moved to the UK a long time ago.

So, you can't assume what you're saying here.

When I went to university in London, a very long time ago, I was very surprised at the number of Indian students on my IT course and in particular the number of Indian women.
In societies that are less equal, technical or professional skills such as engineering or medicine are the key to status and more equality for women.

Perhaps the answer is that more British Indian/Pakistani students are studying IT rather than interior design and classics?
It's been a growth area for decades and a sensible career choice.

The number of students doing computer science degrees has increased quite a bit in the last few years but it's still over 80% male. I can't think there can be that many Indian sub-continent heritage females graduating. TCS is the outsourced provider where I work now and I've barely seen any women out of the few dozen on site. Same at the last place too.

I worry about the quality of computer science degrees at some universities and how well they really prepare students for the world of work. I see many poor CVs from computer science grads. In the next 3-5 years there will be a lot more early career people in the market including those coming out of numerous three month boot camps. I'm guessing prospects might not be so good as expected when supply is increasing faster than demand.

On the wider front, there has definitely been a continued increase in outsourcing since the 2000s financial crisis. The annual revenue of the largest Indian IT firms has consistently increased in that time, some by three or four times. On that basis, I don't think the good times are coming back.

[Smartie]

The cream will rise to the top, despite average quality degrees and the rest will find something else to do. We need better IT skills in many industries if we're to increase productivity :-)

Outsourcing is still increasing but, for the moment, companies are keeping project teams/management mostly onshore I think with development more likely to be offshored.

Give me another 5 years of a reasonable market and that will be it for me.

The number of students doing computer science degrees has increased quite a bit in the last few years but it's still over 80% male. I can't think there can be that many Indian sub-continent heritage females graduating. TCS is the outsourced provider where I work now and I've barely seen any women out of the few dozen on site. Same at the last place too.

I worry about the quality of computer science degrees at some universities and how well they really prepare students for the world of work. I see many poor CVs from computer science grads. In the next 3-5 years there will be a lot more early career people in the market including those coming out of numerous three month boot camps. I'm guessing prospects might not be so good as expected when supply is increasing faster than demand.

On the wider front, there has definitely been a continued increase in outsourcing since the 2000s financial crisis. The annual revenue of the largest Indian IT firms has consistently increased in that time, some by three or four times. On that basis, I don't think the good times are coming back.

[SussexSeagull]

Jobserve showing 32,000 headline number.

Before Sunak called the election it was low 20s. During the election month, June, it fell to around 15K.

32K is still a bad number, but its notable because its mid August..

That is moderately positive.

[SussexSeagull]

Many of my teams over the past 10 years have been majority sub-continent roots, however they mostly had not just arrived to work here. Their families moved to the UK a long time ago.

This is my experience. They came over on a work visa and now have permanent residence.

Again, don't misunderstand me, they have done it legally and in fact a couple of Indian ex-colleagues are helping me find a contract at the moment. But a few years back the government were persuaded by the IT industry there was a skill shortage when there was actually a shortage of people who didn't want to work cheaply.