Client refused working from home and time off - switch to perm?

**northernladuk** · 5 January 2016, 10:13

I believe there could be a bigger problem here but there isn't really enough detail to dig in to. Thing is you say you are an experienced contractor so might be wasting my time going over the basics but to open up the bidding I'll give it a shot..

You say you've been there for years. How many years exactly? That coupled with the change in attitude to time off screams you are now well and truly Part and Parcel. A very poor situation to before we go any further. I would have mentioned the duration as a flag without this coming in to play. Although there is some thinking that duration doesn't play a part in IR35 status I do find that very arguable. It is possible to stay outside IR35 on a long gig but it gets harder and harder as everone, often including the contractor takes their eye off the ball and becomes complacent. It does sound to me that you are there as you appear to be clinging to a client it should be clear that has run it's course.. but only you know the finer detail... The JLJ lost on the part and parcel aspect so there is case law in play here.

Secondly... If they have been offering you permie and the role is going out to permies it sounds like you are in an enduring role which again isn't going to help you one jot if it hits the fan. Again that point is up for debate as I strongly believe clients should have a base of say project managers with a few contingents backing up, not a fully contracted project group. Hard to argue a PM is a permie only role for obvious reasons. What exactly are you doing? You are bum on a seat doing a permie role... not a situation I would be comfortable with either.. depending on what the role is of course.

So your question.. has it run it's course? IMO it's way past that and would be an uncomfortable gig for me. You could argue you are backfilling as a temp resource until the permies turn up but your long history will trump that. You are now part and parcel as they no longer see you as a contractor. To them you are now a perm resource with a different payment method. I'd be willing to bet your RoS is out of the window and there is more D&C going on than you think.

The risks of accepting the perm role is you can't claim any T&S expenses for the gig as it was your perm location from when you started now but you aren't claiming that anyway due to the 24 month role and when you did was probably quite awhile ago. Dunno if you have to pay anything back from the first two years though.

IMO this gig is screwed. I'd be out of there like a shot. For me risking IR35 and being part and parcel easily trumps a good gig. There are plenty of gigs out there and we signed up for a career doing 6 month pieces of work. The fact people get worried and hung up on good gigs is a sign you are part and parcel to me. We have good and bad gigs abound in contracting. It's not a reason to stay when all others have evaporated IMO. Get out there and get another one like we do. You'll be wondering why you should when you are invoicing etc but that's the flag it's time to go.
That said for 70k+20% bonus I'd be giving that some very serious thought. You don't say where it is and what you do but I'll be betting there will be a lot of very experienced contractors taking perm roles for that before next April.

All this is IMO. I'm risk averse and don't think there is a reason to stay at a client when the cracks start appearing, it's just not what we do. Others will obviously say sod IR35 and string out as long as you can... that's your call. As I said, more than enough gigs out there to not stay at one and work at risk.

**psychocandy** · 5 January 2016, 10:21

Nah bollacks all to do with IR35.

WFH is not a right. If client suddenly decides they dont want you to do it anymore then its tough. He who pays the piper calls the tune. If you don't like then leave unfortunately.

As for the time off thing, its more complicated. If you DEMAND time off its going to get the clients back up possibly. Best approach I've found is to politely ask client if it'd be a problem if you were out that day (so you're not really asking please can I have 'leave')

If they want me to put it on a calendar/spreadsheet or whatever I have no issue. I can't see how client wanting to plan resources be it perm or contractor has anything to do with IR35.

Bottom line I always say is if you kick off and moan too much about the way the client wants to do things then you'll end up with no contract and no worries about IR35. I've seen it happen to others. Pick your battles.

One thing about the leave thing though. Unless the client can give me good reason, or be sensible then telling me no I can't be away won't work with me. Only had this once. Had holiday that I'd booked before I even started the gig - this was 7/8 months away.

After first 3 months, and first extension I mentioned it no problems they said. Shortly before, extension offered (which covered this period) so I reminded them and they found issue and basically said no. Despite discussions they would not budge so I said ok no thanks to extension then and left.

They still couldn't see why I did this. Would have lost probably £3000-£4000 by cancelling the holiday, mrs had no other options for leave so it was these weeks or nothing. So mrs pissed off, kids upset too. And client still though I should have done this.....

**LondonManc** · 5 January 2016, 10:23

Go perm or service notice on the contract. You're going to be up to the hilt in IR35.

Or simply get yourself a new contract sorted out with them that you accept to be inside IR35 and suck up the tax bill. Make sure that there are sufficient clauses in there to differentiate it from your old contract (permission for time away, etc.) Still pays far better than the 70k pa offer.

**MrMarkyMark** · 5 January 2016, 10:31

Originally posted by psychocandy View Post

Nah bollacks all to do with IR35.

Total and absolute tosh.

I would concur with NL's summary of the OPs potential IR35 situation, above.

**northernladuk** · 5 January 2016, 10:36

Originally posted by LondonManc View Post

Go perm or service notice on the contract. You're going to be up to the hilt in IR35.

Or simply get yourself a new contract sorted out with them that you accept to be inside IR35 and suck up the tax bill. Make sure that there are sufficient clauses in there to differentiate it from your old contract (permission for time away, etc.) Still pays far better than the 70k pa offer.

I'd imagine this is £70k + Benefits + 20% bonus.... in a gig he clearly thinks is a perfect gig.... Even I would be thinking very hard about this one. The other option is to leave for potentially less and bench time with April 17 coming up. I'd say he's got quite a serious decision to make personally. Unless this is in London I guess. In deepest darkest Yorkshire he'd be pretty stupid not to take it and ride out the next 12 months and see what the fall out is.

**SueEllen** · 5 January 2016, 10:48

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

I'd imagine this is £70k + Benefits + 20% bonus.... in a gig he clearly thinks is a perfect gig.... Even I would be thinking very hard about this one. The other option is to leave for potentially less and bench time with April 17 coming up. I'd say he's got quite a serious decision to make personally. Unless this is in London I guess. In deepest darkest Yorkshire he'd be pretty stupid not to take it and ride out the next 12 months and see what the fall out is.

My personal opinion is if you want the permie role then take it. If you don't then leave.

And personally any client refusing time off over Christmas all of a sudden I wouldn't want to be a permanent employee of their's as they have shown how they treat people....

**funkyd** · 5 January 2016, 10:50

I've been there 10 years and my business has been up and down with other contracts in parallel. I also sell products (servers, laptops, online backup) and services to the client so not just my presence on site.

If I'm well and truly inside IR35 then the switch to perm with the client regardless of the package I mention suits me. It's just not a good time in my life to go job hunting or searching for a contract if I can avoid it. The salary covers my living expenses and I have a 2 year warchest.

It's more the risks of taking the perm position - if there are any? Does the job I do matter? It's a question of whether HMRC would accept that a client might offer a job to someone that has their own business because they want to secure the person long term.

As I see it, my client wants to switch to permies, they want to retain me from my company and have offered a permie role and my business is happy for me to leave and go and work for them. Doesn't this sort of thing happen all the time?

**VectraMan** · 5 January 2016, 10:55

£500pd and £4Kpm on top, and they can't rely on you to be there when they need you?

**funkyd** · 5 January 2016, 11:01

Originally posted by VectraMan View Post

£500pd and £4Kpm on top, and they can't rely on you to be there when they need you?

They can but everyone needs time off for family or something or other. It's unrealistic not to anticipate that and for them, for their own business sake not to have other provisions.

I could solve it by taking someone on which gets round needing to go permie with them.

Client refused working from home and time off - switch to perm?