Long Contracts

[Jack Kada]

A transacript of the JLJ judgement is available at

http://www.egos.co.uk/ir35_cases/JLJ...nue_&_2011.pdf

It is worth reading this for those who are interested. It describes the information the judges had to hand when arriving at their conclusion

Interestingly their perspective on substiution and the motiviation for Allianz to accept a contract worker makes interesting reading

[TheFaQQer]

This.

My current gig will last two years (if I accept the next 3 month extension). They have already hinted at a third year but not a chance for me even though I have nothing else lined up.

After about a year I started to get asked to meetings completely unrelated to my skillset. I was then issued my own locker (usually only for permies so I refused it). Next I turned down the Xmas bash invite.

I don't care what anybody says, the very nature of staying somewhere a long time means you become part of it and as I said in a previous post, "anybody doing years in one contract is not a contractor in my opinion"

Self-deprecation?

[psychocandy]

This.

My current gig will last two years (if I accept the next 3 month extension). They have already hinted at a third year but not a chance for me even though I have nothing else lined up.

After about a year I started to get asked to meetings completely unrelated to my skillset. I was then issued my own locker (usually only for permies so I refused it). Next I turned down the Xmas bash invite.

I don't care what anybody says, the very nature of staying somewhere a long time means you become part of it and as I said in a previous post, "anybody doing years in one contract is not a contractor in my opinion"

Hmmm. Not sure some of these things are that bad to be honest.

There seems to be an awful lot of paranoia. I used to work with a fella like this. He was a right awkward git and used to refuse to do even the slightest things if he thought it was affecting his IR35 status.

In the end, client got sick of it and gave him the boot.

Point being its all well and good worrying about it but IMHO most clients dont give a monkeys. Upset them too much and you wont have to worry about IR35 because you won't have a contract!

[TheFaQQer]

Yes, because insurers never try and weasel out of paying up, do they?

Look, it comes down to an individual's mitigation of the IR35 threat. I personally avoided likely IR35 targets such as Government contracts. I've already said by their nature, long contracts tend to make you part and parcel of the organisation. It doesnt mean you'll automatically be investigated or caught.

By the same token, I'd prefer to lessen the risk. A 'very profitable' long contract wont be that profitable if you are deemed within IR35 and get lumped with back tax and penalty interest. You make your bed and you lie in it.

I agree that it's down to mitigation and your behaviour. I disagree that being in a long contract makes you a disguised employee, though.

• I work from home
• I use my own equipment, having refused their offer of a laptop
• I have a pass that identifies me as a contractor
• I am identified in the system as a contractor
• I am recognised within the team as a contractor (three contractors, three permie in the team, and they all know who the contractors are )
• I work the hours that I choose to do, and am not controlled in any way, shape or form
• When I am unavailable for work, I inform the stream lead that I am unavailable. There is no notion of approval
• I have an unfettered right of substitution in the contract
• When there is no work to do, I do not invoice for that time
• They have been my client for 2 1/2 years and should continue to do so for another year at least
• I am working on a huge implementation which takes a significant amount of time to complete - certainly when I discussed the scale and type of implementation with the Oracle SVP for eBusiness Suite two years ago he said that he wasn't aware of any client in the world who had attempted to do what we are doing

I have Qdos TLC35 insurance to cover the costs of any investigation, tax, interest and penalties. I have IPSE+ membership if I felt more comfortable in having them fight my corner (although obviously I wouldn't have the cover for any payments).

I really don't worry about IR35 - although I understand how if you let things slip then you should do.

[jamesbrown]

Yes, because insurers never try and weasel out of paying up, do they?

Look, it comes down to an individual's mitigation of the IR35 threat. I personally avoided likely IR35 targets such as Government contracts. I've already said by their nature, long contracts tend to make you part and parcel of the organisation. It doesnt mean you'll automatically be investigated or caught.

By the same token, I'd prefer to lessen the risk. A 'very profitable' long contract wont be that profitable if you are deemed within IR35 and get lumped with back tax and penalty interest. You make your bed and you lie in it.

I may be wrong, but weren't you involved in one or other contractor avoidance schemes? In that context, it seems very odd that you'd consider contract length as "high risk".

It's well established that contract length is neutral from an IR35 POV, and the indirect risk of becoming part and parcel is straightforward to mitigate against if you have the proper mindset. A lot of the discussion here is about BoS numpties that don't have the proper mindset and would be caught regardless of contract length. Businesses implement products and processes to timetables that make sense for those products and processes. Some projects are short, other projects are long. This is entirely irrelevant from an IR35 POV.

Under- and over-reaction to IR35 are two sides of the same coin and demonstrate a lack of business mentality. Curtailing a contract for no other reason than a perception that you'd be a "weaker target" is to woefully misunderstand the situation. If you suffer an IR35 investigation, all contracts will be investigated (rightly so) and, if anything, the combination of a large number of contracts and a lack of business mentality will simply prolong your agony.

TAfter about a year I started to get asked to meetings completely unrelated to my skillset. I was then issued my own locker (usually only for permies so I refused it). Next I turned down the Xmas bash invite.

I dare say that you're much closer to being caught on one or more of your BoS contracts than many around here who work longer contracts that lack any D&C. If you think that moving regularly keeps you "safe", in any sense, you're very wrong.

[tvr450]

Contract 1: 12 years now. Have not been to their office for about 5 years. I have three sub-contractors that I give work to when the gig gets too busy.

I have a couple of other contracts which give me work when they have it.

I have IPSE+ and I come here and read NorthernLad's comments regularly in order to scare myself silly about IR35 and make sure I am not 'part and parcel' etc etc

[darmstadt]

Just finished 5 years although they've given me a contract for this year but its only 400 hours for as and when required support. I never felt I was part of the permie culture there and in fact was excluded from nearly everything apart from the weekly team meetings and even then I was asked not to go sometimes when they primarily discussed internal projects. Even now I don't know half the people the others talk about in the office even though I've been there longer, in fact apart from the department manager and another bloke, I'm the longest serving 'member of staff' there. When the other teams that I provide support for heard that I wasn't getting renewed at the end of last year they actually put pressure on the manager to keep me on

I've done quite a few 2-3 year contracts and also those on-off ones where one was 7 years and another 10 years. In fact my contracts have lasted longer than any permie job I've had

[Goatfell]

Looking good...

Just finished 5 years although they've given me a contract for this year but its only 400 hours for as and when required support. I never felt I was part of the permie culture there and in fact was excluded from nearly everything apart from the weekly team meetings and even then I was asked not to go sometimes when they primarily discussed internal projects. Even now I don't know half the people the others talk about in the office even though I've been there longer, in fact apart from the department manager and another bloke, I'm the longest serving 'member of staff' there. When the other teams that I provide support for heard that I wasn't getting renewed at the end of last year they actually put pressure on the manager to keep me on

I've done quite a few 2-3 year contracts and also those on-off ones where one was 7 years and another 10 years. In fact my contracts have lasted longer than any permie job I've had

5 years
2-3 year x 5
7 years
10 years
30 years+

Is that an old photo of you in your avatar, or do you practice Tantric yoga?

[northernladuk]

A transacript of the JLJ judgement is available at

http://www.egos.co.uk/ir35_cases/JLJ...nue_&_2011.pdf

It is worth reading this for those who are interested. It describes the information the judges had to hand when arriving at their conclusion

Interestingly their perspective on substiution and the motiviation for Allianz to accept a contract worker makes interesting reading

KUATB please...

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...ml#post2063318

[northernladuk]

Contract 1: 12 years now. Have not been to their office for about 5 years. I have three sub-contractors that I give work to when the gig gets too busy.

I have a couple of other contracts which give me work when they have it.

I have IPSE+ and I come here and read NorthernLad's comments regularly in order to scare myself silly about IR35 and make sure I am not 'part and parcel' etc etc

LOL. Not sure why you would be scared in that situation. You sound more like a supplier than a contractor so home and dry....


or are you????? Mauahahah