Contract with N/A r.e. overtime

[money]

I got my contract through - consulting for a financial via an agency, I know for sure there will be overtime and out of hours work. In the contract it says my daily rate, which is fine, however when it comes to the premium rate for services outside normal working hours on business days and non business days its just filled with N/A. I called the agency to question them on this. I had a reply back with this

The standard [CLIENT NAME] terms are • PAID DAILY –No weekday overtime, pro rata hourly rate for weekends and bank holidays, i.e. daily rate divided by number of hours worked daily.

I asked if this could be reflected in the contract, and they said no it can't for legal reasons. But they wouldn't tell me what those reasons are. Anyone come across this problem and may know what the reasons are for this?
The contract expresses the importance of timesheet getting authorised, so I wonder if I include this in the timesheet I will be paid for it. Then after they said its best speak to my new manager how to deal with the overtime, i.e. claim for it or take time in lieu.
TIA

[malvolio]

You don't really understand the concept of a Professional Working Day do you? If you do substantive work for your client in any 24 period you charge them a set fee. Doesn't matter whether it's 2 hours or 20. So the concept of differential rates simply doesn't apply, your unit of work is one day.

Also, you're not selling time, you're selling expertise and deliverables. Would you expect to pay Amazon more if they took an extra day to deliver your online shopping?

That said I've no idea why the contract can't say that, unless it's the usual bollocks of agencies not understanding their own business and getting muddled up with employment laws or something. The contractual agreement between you and your client is a B2B one and as long as both sides agree is pretty much free format.

Since it's not in the contract then yes, feel free to negotiate some kind of offset - we've all done that on occasion - but don't expect to get it as of right or as anything other than a casual agreement. And if you're bidding for work that will involve longer hours, either go for an hourly rate (but remember the observation above about what it is you're selling) or up the rate to compensate.

[SussexSeagull]

Believe me, if something is urgent enough to do on a weekend they will come to an arrangement.

[gigahoe]

You don't really understand the concept of a Professional Working Day do you? If you do substantive work for your client in any 24 period you charge them a set fee. Doesn't matter whether it's 2 hours or 20. So the concept of differential rates simply doesn't apply, your unit of work is one day.

Also, you're not selling time, you're selling expertise and deliverables. Would you expect to pay Amazon more if they took an extra day to deliver your online shopping?

That said I've no idea why the contract can't say that, unless it's the usual bollocks of agencies not understanding their own business and getting muddled up with employment laws or something. The contractual agreement between you and your client is a B2B one and as long as both sides agree is pretty much free format.

Since it's not in the contract then yes, feel free to negotiate some kind of offset - we've all done that on occasion - but don't expect to get it as of right or as anything other than a casual agreement. And if you're bidding for work that will involve longer hours, either go for an hourly rate (but remember the observation above about what it is you're selling) or up the rate to compensate.

Surely this depends if the amount of hours are also mentioned? My current contract explicitly states how many hours per day and per week and gives a rate for any prior agreed over time.

I'm more that happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect.

[TheFaQQer]

pro rata hourly rate for weekends and bank holidays, i.e. daily rate divided by number of hours worked daily.

Simple - work less hours, and your hourly rate goes up

So in order to maximise your weekend rate, using that formula you need to make sure you normally only work for a minute a day. Then work a few hours over the weekend and you're laughing.

[malvolio]

Surely this depends if the amount of hours are also mentioned? My current contract explicitly states how many hours per day and per week and gives a rate for any prior agreed over time.

I'm more that happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect.

If it sets the number of hours it's not a PWD...

[psychocandy]

The old PWD. Im normally happy with this - ie something goes wrong you stay etc.
Most clients I've been at have been ok and have informally done the TOIL thing. i.e. leave early one day etc.

What does sometimes gripe me is that when something is planned for the weekend and its going to be 12 hours+. In this case, I expect client to make special arrangements so that 1.5 is paid if its going to be the case.

You can go on about this PWD being 30 mins or 12 hours but you can bet your ass that a lot of clients would flip if you tried to bill a whole day for 30 mins. But a lot wont mind you billing a day for 12 hours. I wont bill a whole day for a short day but expect to bill for a long day.

Yeh its a little IR35 off I guess and down the hourly route. But then, if your support rather than project based this is the nature of the beast.

[billybiro]

Would you expect to pay Amazon more if they took an extra day to deliver your online shopping?

Bad analogy. You certainly do pay Amazon more, not for taking longer to deliver your parcel but for taking less time to deliver.

i.e. Super saver delivery = free = 3-5 days, First class = Extra £X = 1-2 days

So, effectively you are paying for (waiting) time (or the lack of it).

[BolshieBastard]

If you want to be paid a premium rate for 'overtime,' you need to get this agreed and in the contract before you start. If you're not happy with it, dont start because once you do, you'll find it virtually impossible to get in included afterwards.

Its only a minority of contractors who can get a contract between them and the client that says if they are on site for 30 mins, they get paid the full day rate. The majority of contractors wont get this in their contracts.

[malvolio]

...Its only a minority of contractors who can get a contract between them and the client that says if they are on site for 30 mins, they get paid the full day rate. The majority of contractors wont get this in their contracts.

Ermm, clearly I'm the minority then