Backstops and hard borders

[stonehenge]

What type of United Ireland do people want?

The type with sunny uplands and unicorns of course.

[Old Greg]

The type with sunny uplands and unicorns of course.

On the whole, people are a bit more realistic over here.

[Whorty]

Brexit and the GFA/Irish Border are not compatible. Never were. People were warned pre ref. NI voted remain, but there are more people in England and the English vote is causing the problems for a part of our nation that never wanted Brexit. English voters don't care though as they are selfish tw@ts.

What brexit will deliver ultimately is an independent Scotland and most likely a unified Ireland. The English, who wanted to make Britain great again and go back to the days of the great empire, will be part of an even smaller union.

The Tories though are too concerned with their own party to care what happens to the UK. The Tories deserve to be destroyed for a generation for what they are doing.

[d000hg]

Parliament can pass anything it wants to.

It cannot pass things on the behalf of other nations - can you give an example of something it could pass that would resolve this?

According to this poll the support for a united Ireland in the ROI is very high, so it's up to NI.

Exclusive: Irish people want a United Ireland, see a referendum in the next 10 years | IrishCentral.com

From the outside it seems sensible but...

Brexit and the GFA/Irish Border are not compatible. Never were. People were warned pre ref. NI voted remain, but there are more people in England and the English vote is causing the problems for a part of our nation that never wanted Brexit. English voters don't care though as they are selfish tw@ts.

Yeah, all the English people should have voted based on what was best for the tiny proportion of people in N.I.



THe thing I'm curious about is that this is hardly being discussed - only all the backstop stuff, and "rule out No Deal" as if that's something we have full control over. That we are by default heading for N.D and N.D does not fix the border issue at all, seems rather an important topic.

[meridian]

But of the EU refuses to budge on the backstop and parliament cannot pass anything, how can we "man up"? What could actually be done?
Because it sounds like in the event of No Deal, Eire would still be obligated to instigate a border with NI under EU rules?

Parliament can pass something, they can agree to the backstop.
Brexiters can put their promised solutions on paper so that they can be examined in detail to see if they stack up in the cold light of day.

The border is not “EU rules”, though the EU will likely insist on “a” border if there is no deal, to try to avoid potential complications with other countries. A border is, by definition, a defined area between TWO countries, therefore the U.K. is at least equally responsible for it (and, given it is the U.K. leaving, it could be argued that the U.K. is more responsible for it).

Stop calling it Eire.

[Old Greg]

It cannot pass things on the behalf of other nations - can you give an example of something it could pass that would resolve this?.

It could pass the withdrawal agreement. It could legislate to withdraw A50. Two examples for you.

[Whorty]

It cannot pass things on the behalf of other nations - can you give an example of something it could pass that would resolve this?

As OG has already said :
1) revoke A50
2) agree to the backstop

Not that difficult to understand is it, or have you not been keeping up with the news recently?

Yeah, all the English people should have voted based on what was best for the tiny proportion of people in N.I.

Do you think it's right then that just because more people live in England, and therefore it has a higher weighting in the ref, that it's population should force other members of the UK to leave the EU (yes, I understand how the ref works and the union before you ask)? NI, Scotland and Gibraltar all voted to remain but the weighting of the England vote is forcing them out.

For NI this could, as a worse case, result in a start to the troubles again even if only by minor fringe groups. But, answer me this, how many people will have to die until you take some responsibility. It could also ultimately result in NI wanting to unify Ireland because, let's face it, they're being let down by Westminster so how worse could it be to be governed by Dublin?

For Scotland, this will lead to a 2nd ref and there is a fair chance that if the EU offer them the chance to re-join then this will break up the union. It will also create another land border for us to have to deal with (should be fun)

And poor old Gibraltar have been largely ignored and fed to the lions.

If this is how we treat our own people, who can trust us to treat other nations better?

[Old Greg]

As OG has already said :
1) revoke A50
2) agree to the backstop

Not that difficult to understand is it, or have you not been keeping up with the news recently?



Do you think it's right then that just because more people live in England, and therefore it has a higher weighting in the ref, that it's population should force other members of the UK to leave the EU (yes, I understand how the ref works and the union before you ask)? NI, Scotland and Gibraltar all voted to remain but the weighting of the England vote is forcing them out.

For NI this could, as a worse case, result in a start to the troubles again even if only by minor fringe groups. But, answer me this, how many people will have to die until you take some responsibility. It could also ultimately result in NI wanting to unify Ireland because, let's face it, they're being let down by Westminster so how worse could it be to be governed by Dublin?

For Scotland, this will lead to a 2nd ref and there is a fair chance that if the EU offer them the chance to re-join then this will break up the union. It will also create another land border for us to have to deal with (should be fun)

And poor old Gibraltar have been largely ignored and fed to the lions.

If this is how we treat our own people, who can trust us to treat other nations better?

No need to get too excited about the way English people voted. Brexit is compatible with the GFA if the model of Brexiteer is similar to EEA membership or if the backstop is adopted.

[chopper]

But of the EU refuses to budge on the backstop

So, what kind of 'budge' could the EU do? The backstop is basically 'This, if there are no alternative arrangements' to protect the GFA. So we can't go back and ask for alternative arrangements, because we haven't defined what they could be. (And even if we did, I think a backstop would still be needed in case the alternative arrangements didn't work out).

It could be non-permanent, but then what? Harden the Irish border thereafter and breach the GFA at some point in the future. It doesn't have to be a physical border to be a hard border - said hard border would simply make it illegal to allow goods/services/people to cross over it without the necessary border and customs inspections. That would become smuggling.

The Irish border is solved with regulatory and customs alignment, and there is only one real solution to that - keep NI in the single market and the customs union. Put a border in the sea between rUK and NI. And why not? There are plenty of other areas that Nanny Arlene is happy for NI to be different to the UK. It is probably less disruptive for their to be border/customs checks at a sea crossing than a land border.

[Whorty]

No need to get too excited about the way English people voted. Brexit is compatible with the GFA if the model of Brexiteer is similar to EEA membership or if the backstop is adopted.

EEA not on the table, backstop won't be adopted, so as it stands today brexit is not compatible with the GFA as it's English voters that are fanatical against those two options.

BTW, I am English born and bred so not attacking the English from the outside. I am embarrassed and ashamed by Little Englanders though who still think we're fighting WW2. They really need to get over themselves.