Project Fear Redux

[original PM]

Why ruin a good argument with facts?

Okay, I will add an alternative view for balance(though the truth lies somewhere in the middle).

Anyway, "Call me Dave" wanted to silence Tory MPs - he believed he would get a similar result to Scottish referendum. He badly got it wrong - first he should have done something about non-EU immigration (which is getting more out of control).

The EU cannot let the UK succeed on its own. It would be the end of the EU gravy train.

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I do agree with the comments over May. No-one has any idea what she believes in. She just tries to placate both sides.

Also I agree the UK negotiated badly. Agreeing to talk about money settlement without trade deal was a huge error. It let the EU dictate the pace of the talks.

Exactly that.

Whatever you think about the EU or Brexit or whatever it is in the best interest (and potentially the only hope the EU has to stay together) to ensure the UK completely fails once they leave.

Anything resembling a decent deal will mean more countries will leave.

[Zigenare]

Green, you are typical of Brexiteers. You diss everything but come up with nothing, or next to nothing in response.

You've said you believe the EU will not give the UK a sweetheart deal because it threatens the future of the bloc. To me that sounds logical. I'd do the same if I was them. I don't particularly see the gravy train angle but it's immaterial. The situation is we said we are leaving and they've said "OK, we can handle that. It's going to hurt us a bit but that's where we all are".

So I can only think you are peeved that the EU have not said "Look guys, just do whatever you want. We'll be "reasonable" and cancel all our current policies and principles. Send us some tweets when you're ready just so we know what's going on".

New leader Darmstadt's overall position is the Tories and the Brexit voters recklessly embarked on a project that had no details of what was supposed to happen, how long it might take, how much it might cost, what risks were involved and how those risks might be mitigated. Once started the project management made totally inadequate attempts to ramp up resource. They have also seriously failed to change the ambitions of the project in the light of emerging reality. They've been given analysis that reveals in moving toward some vague notions of sovereignty, immigration control and free trade we will suffer significant disruption because we are organically intertwined with the EU. Their solution has to been to say to the EU "You know we are leaving? Well we are also staying in. Just suck it up and stop whingeing"

Now if Darmstadt has got that all wrong, it would be very interesting if you could present your view of where we are and what is the best way forward. Or, like most Brexit voters, you might say "Everyone's making a big fuss. There will be some pain but eventually we'll be alright" This is what David Davis said at the weekend, and it is a logical view. Remainers would say it is reckless to take an agile approach given the enormous stakes but it is a way of living your life. However if you're choosing this style of project management surely you need to assess progress as you go along. You ideally should see some stories being delivered as time moves on. In the case of Brexit, nothing has been delivered so far apart from a series of impossible design documents, and there is little in the way of definition of outcomes (eg what advantageous trade deal with what bloc). And having disastrously declared a go-live date far, far too early, the project has not taken advantage of opportunities to negotiate some substantial re-planning. There needs to be a delay of years not months. That would help the likes of the Dutch as well as us (they've got a huge amount to do to cope with the fallout)

So what is your project guidance at this stage?

Can the project. Sack all involved.

It's looking like "Hotel California"!

[WTFH]

Exactly that.

Whatever you think about the EU or Brexit or whatever it is in the best interest (and potentially the only hope the EU has to stay together) to ensure the UK completely fails once they leave.

Anything resembling a decent deal will mean more countries will leave.

1. What is a decent deal in your mind?
2. Who says more countries will leave?

[meridian]

Can the project. Sack all involved.

It's looking like "Hotel California"!

In what way? The U.K. is free to leave any time it likes.

[Cirrus]

In what way? The U.K. is free to leave any time it likes.

You were free to get on a plane out of California any time you liked.

But then again you weren't, really.

[darmstadt]

I've mentioned this before but I'm pretty sure the MSM read this forum as I've noticed postings on here which look very similar to articles in them, primarily the DM. Now the Guardian: Thread Title

[sal]

Exactly that.

Whatever you think about the EU or Brexit or whatever it is in the best interest (and potentially the only hope the EU has to stay together) to ensure the UK completely fails once they leave.

Anything resembling a decent deal will mean more countries will leave.

The UK is like a spoiled brat who brags to his mates how he moved out of his parents home and is now independent. While still expecting his mom to do his laundry and dad to give him the car keys for the weekend.

When they refuse, the brat cries foul, that they are punishing him and don't respect his wish for independence.

[Cirrus]

The UK is like a spoiled brat who brags to his mates how he moved out of his parents home and is now independent. While still expecting his mom to do his laundry and dad to give him the car keys for the weekend.

When they refuse, the brat cries foul, that they are punishing him and don't respect his wish for independence.

Problem is: that happens a lot. It's the same dilemma. The parents don't want the situation to be any worse than it needs to be, so they give in. The Tories - and Brexit voters - think they can pull the same trick on the EU.

And of course, nobody knows whether they can, or to what extent.

I blame the EU. They should stop playing with the Tories - "Tell us what you want and we'll tell you whether you can have it or not". They should come out and say "You are not going to have anything WHATSOEVER apart from:

1) Norway, or
2) Canada, or
3) Full fat BRINO ie Chequers only you forfeit all your red lines and do as you're told."

Then we can have leadership battles/elections/new parties, and get on with it.

[meridian]

Project Fear Redux

Problem is: that happens a lot. It's the same dilemma. The parents don't want the situation to be any worse than it needs to be, so they give in. The Tories - and Brexit voters - think they can pull the same trick on the EU.

And of course, nobody knows whether they can, or to what extent.

I blame the EU. They should stop playing with the Tories - "Tell us what you want and we'll tell you whether you can have it or not". They should come out and say "You are not going to have anything WHATSOEVER apart from:

1) Norway, or
2) Canada, or
3) Full fat BRINO ie Chequers only you forfeit all your red lines and do as you're told."

Then we can have leadership battles/elections/new parties, and get on with it.

The EU have said pretty much exactly that. Not in bold “nothing else whatsoever” though because that’s not the language of diplomacy, and although sometimes being that forthright might have been a good thing you can bet that the right-wing daily papers would take it as a war ultimatum.

But, essentially, Norway or Canada is all that is on offer.

And like a stroppy teenager, the U.K. is either not listening or has a set of demands not on offer.

But as several other posters would say, a bucket of cold water to teach the U.K. the harsh realities of being in the real world might be the tough love it needs.

Edit: when the EU has said “tell us what you want”, it means tell them what the U.K. wants from the limited menu on offer given the red lines on both sides. Barnier’s waterfall slide.

[sasguru]

The EU have said pretty much exactly that. Not in bold “nothing else whatsoever” though because that’s not the language of diplomacy, and although sometimes being that forthright might have been a good thing you can bet that the right-wing daily papers would take it as a war ultimatum.

But, essentially, Norway or Canada is all that is on offer.

And like a stroppy teenager, the U.K. is either not listening or has a set of demands not on offer.

But as several other posters would say, a bucket of cold water to teach the U.K. the harsh realities of being in the real world might be the tough love it needs.

Edit: when the EU has said “tell us what you want”, it means tell them what the U.K. wants from the limited menu on offer given the red lines on both sides. Barnier’s waterfall slide.

This is the only solution otherwise our kids will be having this same tedious discussion 30 years hence.
Hard Brexit. It's the only way.
The economic shock will be huge, 10% decline in total GDP I'd say, but it really is the only way.