The Irish Problem

[BR14]

I wouldn't describe it as the Irish problem, but as the English and Welsh problem as they voted to leave the EU and by doing so created problems that were not there before.

what the feck do you know about the troubles klootzak? - go home

[WTFH]

The EU created the mechanism whereby individual nations could vote on whether to remain or leave (the treaty with the Article 50 bit in it). Presumably they were hoping their brainwashing/threats etc. would make a 'Leave' vote an impossibility, but in this case they got it wrong. They either have to accept some responsibility for facilitating the smooth departure of a member nation, or we might just have to accept that the EU is just like the Hotel California: You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave...
Some other nations might start to wonder if they actually want to stay in such an organisation.

Are the EU responsible for The Troubles?

I know some Brexit supporters believe they are responsible for everything that is wrong with the UK, but I just want to know if it;s the EU’s fault for The Troubles along with things like Theresa May’s choices on immigrations, border control, etc.

Who do you blame for your own mistakes? Is it always someone else or do you ever accept responsibility?

[Zigenare]

Are the EU responsible for The Troubles?

I know some Brexit supporters believe they are responsible for everything that is wrong with the UK, but I just want to know if it;s the EU’s fault for The Troubles along with things like Theresa May’s choices on immigrations, border control, etc.

Who do you blame for your own mistakes? Is it always someone else or do you ever accept responsibility?

Tongue firmly in cheek...

Well the French did cause a little bit of the problem a few years ago but with the help of the Dutch we soon sorted 'em out.

I recall that ~40 years ago one of my history text books in school was titled "The Irish Problem".

On a serious note, I've washed my hands of the whole issue regarding Ireland.

I genuinely don't see an answer that isn't going to cause serious problems somewhere. It's not my lack of imagination, it's the experience of serving in NI and then working back in Belfast as a civvy a few years ago, nothing has *really* changed. Yes the sectarian violence attributed to the "cause" has receded a little but it's only been replaced by the drug gangs.

However, after the Good Friday Appeasement, there was always going to be a "Next Step" for Ireland with or without Brexit. Yes Brexit has brought the problem to the fore recently but "something" was always going to have to be done - but nobody quite knows what.

[PurpleGorilla]

The Irish Problem

There is a possibility of a partial Customs Union between the UK and EU or even EU and NI.

San Marino has one with the EU. And has open borders with Italy. Despite being outside Schengen.

This isn’t the Swiss model or the Norway model this is a hybrid model.

Perishable goods like fish meat and dairy could be in a partial agreement (which would be attractive to ROI); and tech goods could be outside and requiring the fancy new trusted trader technology.

[darmstadt]

what the feck do you know about the troubles klootzak? - go home

Ooh, isn't that a BNP saying?

[Mordac]

Are the EU responsible for The Troubles?

Of course not, but they are responsible for the need for a border solution (they imposed the rules). If they "theoretically" allow nations to leave, they should be willing to be flexible on the need for borders, not imposing a rigid set of criteria, much of which is contradictory. If their negotiating strategy is "we're going to make it next to impossible for you to get The Deal through your parliament" then it's working very well.

[PurpleGorilla]

Of course not, but they are responsible for the need for a border solution (they imposed the rules). If they "theoretically" allow nations to leave, they should be willing to be flexible on the need for borders, not imposing a rigid set of criteria, much of which is contradictory. If their negotiating strategy is "we're going to make it next to impossible for you to get The Deal through your parliament" then it's working very well.

Without a CU there have to be physical borders - in order to comply with WTO. The UK could choose to be tariff free for all countries and therefore have an open border; but the ROI would need to put up a border due to mixed tariff arrangements in the EU.

But a partial customs union could solve it. I repeat San Marino (which does not include coal or steel; steel is a big export for SM - not sure about coal).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rthern-ireland

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/doc...doc_147375.pdf

[Eirikur]

Ooh, isn't that a BNP saying?

It is and he's now banned.

[WTFH]

Of course not, but they are responsible for the need for a border solution (they imposed the rules). If they "theoretically" allow nations to leave, they should be willing to be flexible on the need for borders, not imposing a rigid set of criteria, much of which is contradictory. If their negotiating strategy is "we're going to make it next to impossible for you to get The Deal through your parliament" then it's working very well.

They - the EU - did not vote to leave. UK voters did.

At some point, the UK is going to have to accept responsibility for the UK voters voting to leave.

Stop blaming the EU and start accepting responsibility, once you’ve done that, then maybe start acting responsibly by coming up with suggestions that fulfil the Leave campaigns requirements.

How do you think the Irish border should be handled?
How do you propose to stop all those things that the UK public voted to stop:
Freedom of movement of people, goods and services, etc?

[jamesbrown]

How do you think the Irish border should be handled?

Separate treatment of NI, which remains in the SM + CU (CU alone is not enough). Checks on goods travelling East-West and vice versa.

How do you propose to stop all those things that the UK public voted to stop:
Freedom of movement of people, goods and services, etc?

Canada-style FTA, which is the only thing on the table, aside from EEA/EFTA, although the EU wants zero tariffs on 100% of goods.

This needs to be wrapped in an Association Agreement (AA) with a bunch of other agreements on security, data sharing etc. An AA is what the European Parliament wants w/r to the legislative vehicle. One cycle of ratification, so it's doable within a relatively short timeframe.

The above is what Barnier refers to as a "realistic, workable proposal" (alongside EEA/EFTA). It's pushing at an open door, although they'd prefer EEA/EFTA, of course.

Take the economic hit in the short- to medium-term. "No one voted to get poorer." Yes, they did.

Of course, none of that can happen with the currently Parliamentary arithmetic (notably, with DUP support, or with May in power), so we're heading for a political crisis first (i.e. either after capitulation or a no deal).