The EU doesn't give a damn about Brexit

[Mordac]

Yes. It's been arranged. It didn't just appear.

Currently, UK flies to EU under the open skies agreement. When UK isn't in the EU, that agreement won't apply. So we'll need a new one. But that must be put in place ready to go before the old one disappears. If that doesn't happen - no flights. And that's what happens if the UK goes to WTO rules without reaching an agreement with the EU. Which is what Erikur said. Now, maybe an agreement will be reached before then, but that doesn't negate what Erikur said.

It's really not terribly hard to understand.

He said, and I quote, "no air traffic between EU and UK". Which bit of "should have gone to Specsavers" weren't you following?

[Stevie Wonder Boy]

WTO rules
No air traffic between the EU and UK
No visa free travel into Schengen and other EU countries (start queuing up at all those embassies guys for your weekend to Nice or skiing holiday)

But yay you have control over your border
(oh you already have that and you don't want control over the border with Ireland, you have that too)

Yea sure ok, just like when you Travel to the USA.

[Stevie Wonder Boy]

He said, and I quote, "no air traffic between EU and UK". Which bit of "should have gone to Specsavers" weren't you following?

And the planes all return empty from the EU ...

This is just laughable.

[Mordac]

And the planes all return empty from the EU ...

This is just laughable.

It's not even laughable. BA's parent company is registered in Spain, Ryanair are based in Ireland, Easyjet will be semi-registered in Austria, Thomson are going to be TUI (Germany). How the hell do you think the EU are going to stop any of these British airlines flying into the EU? If it's the best scare tactic they can come up with, it must have come straight from J-C J after a particularly pleasant tax-payer funded lunch.

[BlasterBates]

Time running out for an agreement

The British might not even be able to bring in sufficient German lager, Swedish cider, Italian prosecco, Irish stout and French champagne to celebrate their ‘freedom’

"Warm Beer" it will be for the Brexit celebrations, followed by a weekend in Clacton on Sea for the annual summer holiday. Hopefully there will be enough omnibuses.

[chopper]

The UK is currently in the European Common Aviation Area. The rights to fly aren't an open skies treaty between the 28 members states. Membership of the EU isn't a pre-requisite to membership of the ECAA. There are 44 member states of the ECAA (including Morocco and Jordon).

If your country is in the ECAA, then the entire ECAA is effectively a domestic market.

Instead of UK coming up with bilateral air service treaties with the US (remember Bermuda II agreement? Heavily restricted operations between Heathrow and the US to BA, Virgin, American and United, to a restricted list of airports. Only ended 10 years ago.), the treaties are between the ECAA collectively and the external countries, e.g. the US-ECAA open skies agreement. Bermuda II was ripped up overnight.

The UK leaving the EU does not mean the UK has to leave the ECAA. But David Davis has indicated we will. Whilst membership of the EU is not a pre-requisite, acceptance of the jurisdiction of the ECJ over aviation matters and regulatory oversight from EASA is a pre-requisite. 16 countries outside the EU accept ECJ jurisdiction and EASA regulation in order to access ECAA.

If we do leave, then there will be issues. It is unlikely that UK-EU flights would end, but the rights of UK airlines to operate within the EU would end (e.g. Easyjet, as a UK airline, operating from Amsterdam to Bordeaux), the rights of EU airlines to operate within the UK would end (e.g. Ryanair, as an EU airline, operating from Stansted to Glasgow), but significantly the rights of UK airlines to fly to the US and vice versa would end, until a new UK-US treaty came into force. If we stayed in the ECAA, then nothing would end.

It would all be moot, since a no-deal scenario would subdue demand sufficiently that it would make the collapse of Monarch look like a small scale dry run.

[DimPrawn]

Time running out for an agreement



"Warm Beer" it will be for the Brexit celebrations, followed by a weekend in Clacton on Sea for the annual summer holiday. Hopefully there will be enough omnibuses.

If it means you and the other remoaners stuck in the EU can never return or visit, I'm all for it.

[chopper]

WTO rules

What is it about WTO rules that is more appealing than EU rules?

Lets say the EU allows 1 million widgets to be imported today. In a post-Brexit world, it might be divided up so that the EU would have a quota of 900,000 and the UK a quota of 100,000.

The US could kick up a stink, saying 'last year we sold 500,000 widgets to the UK, now we can only sell 100,000. It's not fair.' And it would end up with the WTO Dispute Settlement Body. Sounds a bit like being subject to ECJ decisions to me.

The US is going to use Brexit as a gateway to dumping more of their tulipe on the UK market.

[Paddy]

He said, and I quote, "no air traffic between EU and UK". Which bit of "should have gone to Specsavers" weren't you following?

You haven't a clue about airlines work.
There was an interest program on R4 this evening with Easyjet and others.
Once Brexit happens, the rights to fly in/out of Europe have gone.
Furthermore they need to agree timetables on year in advance therefore the 2019 timetables
have to be done in 2018. In it not looking good.
Currently there is no alternative agreement in place, and the airlines cannot take bookings beyond March 2019.
All flying rights for flight to/from and within the EU have to be certified under a
separate agreements.

My bet is that many airline will move their centre of operations out of the UK,

Voted Brexit? Now look what you've done!

[SueEllen]

The UK is currently in the European Common Aviation Area. The rights to fly aren't an open skies treaty between the 28 members states. Membership of the EU isn't a pre-requisite to membership of the ECAA. There are 44 member states of the ECAA (including Morocco and Jordon).

If your country is in the ECAA, then the entire ECAA is effectively a domestic market.

Instead of UK coming up with bilateral air service treaties with the US (remember Bermuda II agreement? Heavily restricted operations between Heathrow and the US to BA, Virgin, American and United, to a restricted list of airports. Only ended 10 years ago.), the treaties are between the ECAA collectively and the external countries, e.g. the US-ECAA open skies agreement. Bermuda II was ripped up overnight.

The UK leaving the EU does not mean the UK has to leave the ECAA. But David Davis has indicated we will. Whilst membership of the EU is not a pre-requisite, acceptance of the jurisdiction of the ECJ over aviation matters and regulatory oversight from EASA is a pre-requisite. 16 countries outside the EU accept ECJ jurisdiction and EASA regulation in order to access ECAA.

If we do leave, then there will be issues. It is unlikely that UK-EU flights would end, but the rights of UK airlines to operate within the EU would end (e.g. Easyjet, as a UK airline, operating from Amsterdam to Bordeaux), the rights of EU airlines to operate within the UK would end (e.g. Ryanair, as an EU airline, operating from Stansted to Glasgow), but significantly the rights of UK airlines to fly to the US and vice versa would end, until a new UK-US treaty came into force. If we stayed in the ECAA, then nothing would end.

It would all be moot, since a no-deal scenario would subdue demand sufficiently that it would make the collapse of Monarch look like a small scale dry run.

Yeah but a lot of us know Brexiters are talking tulip as they think they can have their cake and eat it.