Do I expect too much of my Accountant?

**aardvark** · 3 December 2013, 06:32

YABU

I think at least some of your expectations are unreasonable.

Your accountant is not an IFA - they could probably put you in touch with one. As far as expenses etc. go, they probably have given you a sheet telling you what you can claim - have you read it? I agree it would be nice if they were more pro-active (e.g. "I see you're claiming mileage - did you know you can claim lunch?") but I don't think any do provide this level of service. Emails should be answered more quickly - if they're regularly taking a week then I'd definitely raise that with them.

**LisaContractorUmbrella** · 3 December 2013, 08:20

If emails are not being answered for a week then that's something to complain about.

The Financial services industry is highly regulated and accountants are generally not qualified to offer advice on investments. Guidance on expenses runs to well over 100 pages - accountants can give you advice on the basics e.g. a cost can only be an expense if it is incurred wholly and exclusively etc. etc. and can answer direct questions on specific costs you have incurred but they cannot preempt what you may or may not be able to claim.

An accountant can give you advice on how to prepare a forecast or what financial information a business plan should contain but beyond that they will have little involvement - their job is to report and analyse historical information not to prepare financial plans for the future.

If you have used an accountant for 12 months and feel that you could do what they have done for you then give it a go - some people on here manage quite well.

**7specialgems** · 3 December 2013, 09:02

Originally posted by aardvark View Post

I think at least some of your expectations are unreasonable.

Your accountant is not an IFA - they could probably put you in touch with one. As far as expenses etc. go, they probably have given you a sheet telling you what you can claim - have you read it? I agree it would be nice if they were more pro-active (e.g. "I see you're claiming mileage - did you know you can claim lunch?") but I don't think any do provide this level of service. Emails should be answered more quickly - if they're regularly taking a week then I'd definitely raise that with them.

No such sheet unfortunately. Save for the basics like mileage then my knowledge of what's claimable is born almost wholly of lurking this site and reading legislation for myself (which I certainly think I should always be doing but I think it would reasonable to expect this information to be volunteered at a timely basis and my expenses trends reviewed? I don't really have the time to keep on top of movements in legislation and thought by paying an Accountant I'd be paying someone who did this and volunteered information).

E-mail is top of the list for being lodged. My book keeper appears to be one of the company directors and seems to neglect books in favour of business growth. If (if) I decide to stay with them for any period of time I shall be at least be asking for my account to be passed into hands with time to dedicate to it.

**7specialgems** · 3 December 2013, 09:06

Originally posted by LisaContractorUmbrella View Post

If emails are not being answered for a week then that's something to complain about.

The Financial services industry is highly regulated and accountants are generally not qualified to offer advice on investments. Guidance on expenses runs to well over 100 pages - accountants can give you advice on the basics e.g. a cost can only be an expense if it is incurred wholly and exclusively etc. etc. and can answer direct questions on specific costs you have incurred but they cannot preempt what you may or may not be able to claim.

An accountant can give you advice on how to prepare a forecast or what financial information a business plan should contain but beyond that they will have little involvement - their job is to report and analyse historical information not to prepare financial plans for the future.

If you have used an accountant for 12 months and feel that you could do what they have done for you then give it a go - some people on here manage quite well.

Thanks for your comments.

With regards to the management of expenses, it helps to frame my ideas.

Whilst I agree an accountant doesn't have a crystal ball then I wonder if I'm being too harsh if I *expect* them to give a glance to what I am claiming from time to time and get in touch if they spot large, typial absences, such as "he doesn't claim lunch" or "it's winter, did you know you can claim a Flu jab? Just a thought".

It would be interesting if any accountants chipped in to say "well actually yes, as a practice, we do that" or any clients can state "my accountant does those things for me". I wonder if I'm paying Premier League prices but getting League 2 service.

I guess I am trying to work out in my head where that line is... where you pay someone and pass over full care and attention to them and you concentrate on your business

**northernladuk** · 3 December 2013, 09:31

It's good that you are reviewing their performance and asking the question so here are my thoughts.

No recommendation on investments/pensions

He isn't an IFA and I am sure you would get very unhappy if you received to much of this type of information unsolicited. I would start to wonder if he is pushing these for a kick back if he offered it anyway.

No audit of my expenses/telling me about things I could be claiming for but am not

I don't expect this either. My accountant has a comprehensive guide for expenses and I believe the responsibility for getting it right lies mainly with me to investigate and ask. Reading expenses guides, this forum and speaking to colleagues is the main way I get to grips with this. I do ask them any questions that occur to me however hair brained they may be. There are quite a few things to claim but the list isn't exhaustive so not hard to research.

No encouragement nor interest from Accountant in Business Plan or Forecasts

In my mind he does my accounts, not run my business. Happy not to have this.

Lots of googling in my own time to get familiar with CA2006/ITEPA

Again, it is my responsibility to understand this but would expect him to help me with questions or go through it if I ask them.

Not answering emails

Now this I would be very unhappy about. My accountants email back within a working day and if I call them I expect them to be able to take my call and if not get back to me asap. Part of the cost is the service and if they can't provide that in a timely manner I would be out of there. The contact is part of the warm feeling you need that everything is ok. Silence from my accountant would get my alarm bells ringing big time.

£85 a month for basically access to a Cloud tool, a VAT return that's so easy I could do it myself and one month cumulative of stuff which in all honestly I'm happy paying someone to sort out

But they are keeping on top of all changes to tax and keeping abreast with legislation etc. They are also on hand to provide help via phone or email. Think about the rate you are on and how much time that would get your client. An hour, maybe two tops a month. The fact they are available will come with a cost.

Are my expectations unreasonable?

I believe they are a little yes. They provide you a service and are available to spend time (which costs) to help you. I would expect them to do this well when I need them though.

Save for the CTax and PAYE paperwork, I think I could replace them and their web tool with a ruddy spreadsheet and a reminder set on my mobile...

And how would you keep informed of changes? The loans to close companies legislation has changed considerably, the home office amount went up a quid and so on and so on. If you made a mistake there is no one to fix it for you and could get very expensive and there you would have no one to ask should you need help save a few random strangers on an internet forum.

Remember it isn't £85 out of your pocket due to tax as well.

When you started with them you should have been sent a detailed engagement document detailing all the services so have a read of that to see if they are actually failing in any of the responsibilities you signed up for. Also if it isn't on there you shouldn't expect to get it.

where you pay someone and pass over full care and attention to them and you concentrate on your business

But again they are not running your business for you, they provide a service to prepare your accounts. At the end of they day you are ultimately responsible as you sign it all off.

You do right to question it but I have had two accountants so far, a small one man band from whom I expected (and didn't get) a personal service and a large contractor specialist who I expected to treat me like a number but have been great. Neither, however, have provided most of the things you are expecting.

**7specialgems** · 3 December 2013, 09:36

Northernladuk, thanks a lot for all of that!

**Maslins** · 3 December 2013, 10:25

I'd agree with most of the above.

Slow responses is the main one that I feel is a genuine gripe.

The other things I'd suggest:
- isn't an accountant's place to provide (eg investment advice)
- you're expecting them to be mind readers (eg guessing what expenses you might have incurred but didn't realise were business ones)
- are "accountant tasks", but probably not ones you should expect for £85/month (eg helping you with a business plan/forecast).

We expect clients to ask us questions, and we respond promptly. Some may say that's not "proactive"...but then people have varying ideas on what proactive means. Some clients seem to think proactive means us guessing that you're thinking about buying X next week and advising you how best to do it (completely unrealistic). Some think it means (eg) looking at your personal tax situation in Feb to make suggestions about whether it's a good idea to take more in divis now or hold fire until post 6 April etc (perfectly realistic).

**Clare@InTouch** · 3 December 2013, 10:29

There's not a massive amount I can add as I mostly agree with the above. Certainly with regulated investment advice which we're not allowed to give, and forecasts which would be outside the remit of most monthly accounting services unless you're a commercial business like a pub (and then paying more for your service anyway).

When it comes to things like expenses it can be difficult as without intimate knowledge of your business and what costs will be necessary for you to run your company it's hard to always know what you can claim. What we can do though is give you a list of common things, give you the criteria an expense has to meet in order to be allowable, score easy points by picking up obvious omissions like use of home, and ask you to call or email if you're ever unsure. A quick email saying "can I claim this?" can often be answered quickly and easily (not always, but often!)

I think a lot of the cost of a monthly service is the availability of a professional to answer your questions, but to some degree it's down to you how much you make that worth. I have clients who seem to call me nigh on every day with various questions (or sometimes just for a chat) and others who I don't think I've ever spoken to and we simply prepare the accounts and returns for.

As NLUK says you're also paying someone else to keep on top of legislation for you, and to sit on the phone to HMRC to sort out small issues that would otherwise waste your time. Then there's the software that make iXbrl and RTI a lot easier than the terrible HMRC online options that you may otherwise have to use.

All in all I think it's lot of little things, but it's also what you make of it. Bug your accountant a lot more and you may feel you get more for your money. And definitely complain about the email situation, that shouldn't be normal service. It's usual to have delays at certain times of the year, or when there are holidays/illness, but not all the time.

**MPwannadecentincome** · 3 December 2013, 10:35

Originally posted by 7specialgems View Post

It would be interesting if any accountants chipped in to say "well actually yes, as a practice, we do that" or any clients can state "my accountant does those things for me". I wonder if I'm paying Premier League prices but getting League 2 service.

You are paying at the low end of a Standard Price and getting a Standard Service.

Also I am sure if you had asked them about particular legislation or rules they would have explained to you?

Do I expect too much of my Accountant?