Self-employed? Surely we're employees of ltd company we happen to be directors of?

[psychocandy]

An employee has a contract of employment. We mostly don't (there are always some weirdos... ). What we are is officers of YourCo, and receive a remuneration in that role.

Self employed has two meanings, the general one where you aren't specifically employed by anyone, and the specific one that means you pay Schedule D NIs and have a different tax and expenses regime to the normal wage earner. JSA takes no notice, it's only interested in your earnings from any direction.

Of course, if you want a contract of employment you can have one - but you potentially open yourself up to considerations around NMW and WTD

Thanks all - yes I know about the legal entities etc and know that a director is different.

JSA seem to be interested in self-employment and whether you're a company director and then when you registered as self-employed. Of course, most of aren't registered as self-employed buy are company directors.

[malvolio]

Thanks all - yes I know about the legal entities etc and know that a director is different.

JSA seem to be interested in self-employment and whether you're a company director and then when you registered as self-employed. Of course, most of aren't registered as self-employed buy are company directors.

Jobcentre only worry about directors in the context of determining your overall savings, which would include company capital. Basic JSA is not means tested whereas Income-Related JSA is, which is why they are asking the question.

But since you have read the PCG guide carefully, you would already know that of course...

[Maslins]

Correct. It's no different from working for Tesco and owning a few shares, you just own more.

But a lot of people don't understand that, and confusion abounds!

This. Lenders don't seem to grasp this either.

But then a lot of sole traders talk about their "company" wrongly too...

[VectraMan]

I did the online JSA form today as well, but it didn't mention any of this. Or is there going to be a second more complicated paper form I'm going to have to do? I was expecting having to explain about Ltd. companies and dividends to some job centre numptie, and as I still have a trickle of occasional plan B income, I was certainly looking forward to explaining how I'm neither employed, self-employed or laid-off, but do do some work, but can't possibly say for how much as it's not in any way paid per hour/day/month or anything they're likely to understand.

[Boo]

Performing the daunting task as filling out the JSA forms today.

I know its going to be confusing but surely those of us who are employees of our own limited company are just that and not self-employed at all?

From what I understand, self-employed is a completely different status?

On the occassions that I have had the misfortune to claim JSA I have told them I was "laid off due to lack of work" which they seemed to understand. AIUI we are treate as employees of OurCo and that is, as you say, different from self-employment.

Although they could in principle ask about company funds I found they did not, except once, on which occassion they accepted being told the value of my fully paid up shares (£100).

Hth,

Boo

[Wanderer]

I know its going to be confusing but surely those of us who are employees of our own limited company are just that and not self-employed at all?
From what I understand, self-employed is a completely different status?

Though we could technically be called employees or company directors, I think that for pretty much all intents and purposes (other than tax), most contractors are self employed workers who just happen to be using a limited liability company as a trading structure.

So if HMRC is asking then no, you are not self employed. If anyone else is asking then yes you are.

[Wanderer]

Although they could in principle ask about company funds I found they did not, except once, on which occassion they accepted being told the value of my fully paid up shares (£100)

That's fine if you had no money in the company, but if a director had money retained in a company that they were the sole shareholder in and they didn't declare it then they are committing fraud.

[bluetoaster]

I'm someone who recently claimed and was paid JSA on the basis that my LTD had had no income for a longer than normal period of time and was no longer paying me. I was paid JSA on contribution based entitlement which is not means tested. All dividends and savings were declared and my company accounts were provided. I didn't leave employment of my limited and when I signed off JSA after getting a contract I received a P45 from to provide to my accountant.

It did cause some confusion with my tax code, where I was changed to BR for my limited on the basis that it was my second employer. That was sorted out with a call to HMRC.

On the plus side, I gained a contract within 3 weeks of claiming JSA so it was a short term thing. I won't apply again if I can help it, it was a lot of effort for very little return, and I felt just wrong turning up for a JSA interview with a laptop. It also depressed me that when I signed on the advisers were impressed that I had actually applied for some roles.

[VectraMan]

Although they could in principle ask about company funds I found they did not, except once, on which occassion they accepted being told the value of my fully paid up shares (£100).

Wierdly the form asked me the number of shares I have (2), but didn't ask for the total, or the number as a percentage. So that value is entirely meaningless, unless they're planning on counting the £2 share capital.

Obviously if you're claiming to have <16K savings, but are holding off on paying yourself that £100K dividend whilst you claim JSA, that would be somewhat dishonest. But that's assuming you have control of the company. I have another small share of another company where I'm not a director, and so have no control over dividend payments. I guess most people who are shareholders will fall into the latter category.

So really they should be asking about directorships.

I wonder if it's worth the hassle for £71.70 a week. What I really need (assuming I'm going to be a doley) is housing benefit, which seems like a load of extra hassle on top of this hassle.

[Podgy]

For JSA you just put where your last job was (client) and name the agency as employer - they treat it the same as if you were a temp - just put 'job via agency as contractor' as a note.

Their systems will explode with anything more complicated.

It will take them months to process the above - by the time you get a (incorrect) payment you'll either have a new contract or will be homeless or dead from starvation - so you wont even be entitled and will probably be investigated for fraud.