First job, first contract, a bit confused...

[SueEllen]

Lying by omission perhaps, but I take your point. What if I said I was willing to lose this job over it? Stupid maybe, but my gut says don't sign something that you're not happy with. Maybe my opinion will change after (hopefully) getting some legal advice tomorrow, but regardless I won't be signing this particular contract (as I'm not signing to say I have a Ltd company when I don't) and I won't turn up on Monday unless this is sorted for the reasons you and SueEllen have mentioned.

Phone the client up tomorrow morning before talking to the agency. Keep trying until you get through to them.

Tell them you really want to start on Monday but unfortunately the agency has mixed up the contracts and your insurance will be invalid unless that is sorted out before hand.

Then get yourself an umbrella company if you haven't done so already. Tell the umbrella company if you sign up with them you aren't opting-in. Depending on the model used by the agency this may be irrelevant anyway. ( If you search the umbrella section of the forum you will see some companies there I suggest you take a look at their postings and talk to them.)

Then talk to the agency. (If the phone rings while you are sorting out umbrella companies don't answer it.)

Your contract needs to have a notice period in it so you can switch to permanent work.

However the agency can put a clause in the client contract stating they have to be paid by them if you go permanent, so make sure there isn't a clause in your contract stating you have to pay them.

[Taurig]

Phone the client up tomorrow morning before talking to the agency. Keep trying until you get through to them.

Tell them you really want to start on Monday but unfortunately the agency has mixed up the contracts and your insurance will be invalid unless that is sorted out before hand.

Then get yourself an umbrella company if you haven't done so already. Tell the umbrella company if you sign up with them you aren't opting-in. Depending on the model used by the agency this may be irrelevant anyway. ( If you search the umbrella section of the forum you will see some companies there I suggest you take a look at their postings and talk to them.)

Do you mean tell them I am not opting out? Or is the general concensus just to suck it up and opt out? How would using an umbrella company get around the other issues I am unhappy with, like the 12 month period after termination of contract when I have to go through the agency for other jobs?

Then talk to the agency. (If the phone rings while you are sorting out umbrella companies don't answer it.)

Your contract needs to have a notice period in it so you can switch to permanent work.

However the agency can put a clause in the client contract stating they have to be paid by them if you go permanent, so make sure there isn't a clause in your contract stating you have to pay them.

It states in my Terms of Agreement that as the Service Provider I have 'no entitlement to give notice'. The word permanent does not appear in the contract and the only way the agreement can be terminated is at the discretion of the agency, or if I am shown to be be incompetent etc. I also have to inform them if the client comes to me looking for more work from me within six months of the contract termination.

[Wanderer]

I'm glad you say he is talking crap. His exact words to me were 'If you opt in, you cannot work with [CLIENT]'. He said I was free to talk to their legal team who would confirm that.

The agent is talking tulip. It is in the best interests of both you and the client for you to NOT opt out of the The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The agency are desperate for you to opt out because if you don't opt out then it limits the fees they can charge your client if you choose to go permanent. This may make the difference between you being offered a permanent job at some time in the future or just let go so consider your options carefully.

The agent will try and bamboozle the client into thinking that this is some sort of opt out for the Agency Workers Regulations 2010 but there is no opt out for that piece of legislation. They just try to baffle people with bulltulip.

in the opt out contract they have given me, for 12 months after this one year contract daily rate contract expires, I cannot enter a contract with the client, someone in the clients group, or someone who I meet as a result of working for the client (during the last six months of the contract). I believe that with opting in, this situation would only last for 8 weeks after the end of the contract. If the current client offers me a permanent position, or I find work with another client, I do no want to have to involve the agency.

You are exactly right there.

At the end of the day you are going to become permanent so it's all pretty irrelevant.

It IS relevant because if Taurig refuses to sign the opt out then this also limits any temp-to-perm fee that the agency can charge the client and this may top the balance of being offered a permie job or let go....

What if I said I was willing to lose this job over it? Stupid maybe, but my gut says don't sign something that you're not happy with.

Stick to your guns if you possibly can. By standing up to these agencies and their illegal practices we can fight them.

Have a read of this post regarding the opt out. If it comes to bare knuckle fighting then tell them that you solicitor has told you that it's illegal under the agency regulations section 32(13) for them to insist that you opt out and that you will bring a civil action against them if they withdraw the contract because you won't opt out.

It may be worthwhile getting a legal advisor and asking them to have a word with the agency and the client on your behalf.

Do you mean tell them I am not opting out? Or is the general concensus just to suck it up and opt out? How would using an umbrella company get around the other issues I am unhappy with, like the 12 month period after termination of contract when I have to go through the agency for other jobs?

Be careful if you go with an umbrella. Some of them are happy to opt out of the agency regulations because it's no risk to them and this is what agencies want to do so they do it to keep the agencies happy.

It states in my Terms of Agreement that as the Service Provider I have 'no entitlement to give notice'. The word permanent does not appear in the contract and the only way the agreement can be terminated is at the discretion of the agency, or if I am shown to be be incompetent etc. I also have to inform them if the client comes to me looking for more work from me within six months of the contract termination.

What the agency are doing here is trying to box you into a corner. If you terminate early then they will want a kickback from you to cover their "losses". Co-incidentally this will amount to the amount of money that they owe you (typically a month's pay). Don't allow them to do this.

I mean, how on earth can you commit to working a whole year for a client? What if circumstances change? You aren't a indentured servant to the client, you want to negotiate a 1 month notice period in there.

Play hard ball with them, don't take any tulip. These guys do it all the time and they have a pretty thick skin. If you get stuck on some point then insist that they escalate it otherwise you end up talking to a brick wall.

Good luck and be strong!

[Wanderer]

Also have a read of my list of Noobie Contractor Mistakes. Some of them only apply to LTD company contractors but you might find some of my rambling post useful.

[northernladuk]

The agent is talking tulip. It is in the best interests of both you and the client for you to NOT opt out of the The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The agency are desperate for you to opt out because if you don't opt out then it limits the fees they can charge your client if you choose to go permanent. This may make the difference between you being offered a permanent job at some time in the future or just let go so consider your options carefully.

The agent will try and bamboozle the client into thinking that this is some sort of opt out for the Agency Workers Regulations 2010 but there is no opt out for that piece of legislation. They just try to baffle people with bulltulip.

What I found when I tried to fight this is that the agent just didn't know the reality of opt in/out. He just spewed the line about Opt out they have been told so you are fighting a losing battle. Arguing with someone that doesn't know and has been told to stick to his guns will get you nowhere.

It IS relevant because if Taurig refuses to sign the opt out then this also limits any temp-to-perm fee that the agency can charge the client and this may top the balance of being offered a permie job or let go....

You can't be basing decisions made now on the slim chance that you might actually go perm with the company in a year. I think adding this in to the fray is just going to confuse the poster more.

Stick to your guns if you possibly can. By standing up to these agencies and their illegal practices we can fight them.

Have a read of this post regarding the opt out. If it comes to bare knuckle fighting then tell them that you solicitor has told you that it's illegal under the agency regulations section 32(13) for them to insist that you opt out and that you will bring a civil action against them if they withdraw the contract because you won't opt out.

It may be worthwhile getting a legal advisor and asking them to have a word with the agency and the client on your behalf.

Where sticking to your guns might be the thing we need to do more I don't think it is advice we should be giving confused newbies. I had a right fight with a large agency over this and ended up backing down or losing the gig and I had all the relevant facts, links and new what I was talking about. Asking a newbie to stand up for something they have no facts about will be like sending a lamb to the slaughter. Ask them about it, push it and if you don't get it just bloody sign it and start work.

Telling a lie to agent is just going to fall about your ears as well. He says 'Oh, who is that then' or 'ok get them to send me a letter' and you are going to look like a right bloody chump. Oh and you are going to lose the gig as well. Is that really worth standing up for on your first gig? I don't think so.

To counter Wanderers post and the fact he has questioned it but not provided any evidence have a look at the post below. Where as they cannot 'demand' you opt out they can chose not to deal with you if you don't.

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ntractors.html

[northernladuk]

To be honest, re-reading this thread it has all gone wrong. We have introduced a confused newbie contractor in to a battle they should not be in and won't understand. To ask someone like this to stand up for Opt In/out when the OP doesn't have a clue what IR35 is and how to have it checked is arse about face.

I think we (myself included) have only successfully scared the pants off the poster for no reason.

All this opting stuff comes back and bites one or two people rarely which is normally negotiated through and never goes legal anyway so don't think we needed to get in to it on this thread.

The OP has much more serious issues on their plate in the form of not having a contract at all let alone arguing legislation that probably won't affect them....

It is a great example not bothering with FTC's through agencies. I bet the rate is bloody awful as well.

[Andy Hallett]

First job, first contract, a bit confused...

The way I read the OP was it was a daily rate contract. Agree with your point on FTC though, the worst of all worlds.

To the OP, get a decent Umbrella company, start on Monday and enjoy your career with NewCo.

Pop back in here once you are all trained up and want to go contracting.

[northernladuk]

The way I read the OP was it was a daily rate contract. Agree with your point on FTC though, the worst of all worlds.

To the OP, get a decent Umbrella company, start on Monday and enjoy your career with NewCo.

Pop back in here once you are all trained up and want to go contracting.

Not going to be a very long career on a FTC lol

[Andy Hallett]

OK, just off the phone with the agency guy. Apparently I am on a daily rate contract; I work the day, I get paid, I don't work, I don't get paid. They have sent me a Ltd Company contract 'for now' so I can start work on Monday, but then I'll get switched over to an umbrella company shortly after with a new contract under the umbrella company that I re-sign.

So, according to the agency guy, I cannot have a daily rate contract AND opt in. Apparently opting in means you are signing up for PAYE etc., and the this is not compatible with daily rate contract. What are peoples thoughts on this? Is it basically sign the thing or leave the job?

This isn't what is traditionally termed a fixed term contract. These are generally where the agency will introduce a 'contractor' who will work for a defined period, as an employee of the client. In this case the agency will charge an introduction fee based on the salary. In the case of the OP the end client will contract with the agency for the supply of services and be paid on a daily rate.

I'm glad you say he is talking crap. His exact words to me were 'If you opt in, you cannot work with [CLIENT]'. He said I was free to talk to their legal team who would confirm that.

My main concern is that in the opt out contract they have given me, for 12 months after this one year contract daily rate contract expires, I cannot enter, or approach with the intent of entering, a contract with the client, someone in the clients group, or someone who I meet as a result of working for the client (during the last six months of the contract). I believe that with opting in, this situation would only last for 8 weeks after the end of the contract. If the current client offers me a permanent position, or I find work with another client, I do no want to have to involve the agency.

Presume you would prefer this from how you have spoken, hence the comment on career, if not my bad.

[Wanderer]

To be honest, re-reading this thread it has all gone wrong. We have introduced a confused newbie contractor in to a battle they should not be in and won't understand. To ask someone like this to stand up for Opt In/out when the OP doesn't have a clue what IR35 is and how to have it checked is arse about face.

The legislation was introduced specifically to protect people like this. The OP is correct to not want to opt out of it.

IR35 is irrelevant because this is a contract via an umbrella.

All this opting stuff comes back and bites one or two people rarely which is normally negotiated through and never goes legal anyway so don't think we needed to get in to it on this thread.

More than one or two people - do a search(!), there are lots of people who have found themselves bitten on the bum by some contract term which would not have been an issue had they refused to opt out.

It is a great example not bothering with FTC's through agencies. I bet the rate is bloody awful as well.

Well, you are presuming that the rate is rubbish (which it may or may not be) but I think we need to stand together and show some solidarity with our fellow contractors. Yes, even the noobie ones - lest we forget that we were all noobies once too!