No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[smalldog]

Morning all, for me personally i think the time has come to try and sort this whole thing out. Im going to start making regular payments on account, there seems to be a certain inevitability about this whole thing now that the finance act will include up front payment. I would rather build some kind of buffer on account in case of the worst. If we eventually win happy days and i get my money back with a bit of interest albeit very small, however if they get hold of the money as an upfront payment, I dont expect to ever see that money again. The appeal process wont be speeded up, HMRC could hold the money for the next 20 years while the legal case runs its course.

Of course not suggesting anyone else takes this route but ive finally had enough of all this so want to start killing it off.

[screwthis]

Morning all, for me personally i think the time has come to try and sort this whole thing out. Im going to start making regular payments on account, there seems to be a certain inevitability about this whole thing now that the finance act will include up front payment. I would rather build some kind of buffer on account in case of the worst. If we eventually win happy days and i get my money back with a bit of interest albeit very small, however if they get hold of the money as an upfront payment, I dont expect to ever see that money again. The appeal process wont be speeded up, HMRC could hold the money for the next 20 years while the legal case runs its course.

Of course not suggesting anyone else takes this route but ive finally had enough of all this so want to start killing it off.

Smalldog, I don't follow you....It sounds like you are saying that you want to voluntarily pay on account as an alternative to being forced to pay at the hands of the finance act. What is the difference between these two options? In either case you will only get money back if we win. Whichever option you choose, the money will come back after the same amount of time and with the same amount of interest. If it takes 20 years you will have to wait that long for your on account payment to be returned.

As said many times before every time sufficient bad news builds up for someone to send a "throwing in the towel" message, why not buy a CTD?

[smalldog]

Smalldog, I don't follow you....It sounds like you are saying that you want to voluntarily pay on account as an alternative to being forced to pay at the hands of the finance act. What is the difference between these two options? In either case you will only get money back if we win. Whichever option you choose, the money will come back after the same amount of time and with the same amount of interest. If it takes 20 years you will have to wait that long for your on account payment to be returned.

As said many times before every time sufficient bad news builds up for someone to send a "throwing in the towel" message, why not buy a CTD?

Hi ST, yes I do want to start voluntarily paying something on account to start chipping away. A CTD is only for a lump sum which I dont have, Im talking hundreds per month but it will give me piece of mind at least Im paying something. Each to their own but if we do get forced to pay it might work in my favour when things like Time to pay arrangements are requested, to show ive actually started to try and make some kind of payment. Having experienced dealing with time to pay the question I was asked before was why have you not attempted to pay anything. If all me paying on a budget plan does is give me more chance of securing a time to pay arrangement thus avoiding bankruptcy, then its worth it to me personally.

It will also help to reduce the interest burden accruing further, granted its small sums but if this takes a couple of years to sort it will make some kind of difference and I need to view it as a savings scheme. IF we win I have a nice buffer coming back to me, if we lose then the balancing payment including interest will be smaller than it would have been had I paid nothing upto that point.

We obviously all need to make our own decisions based on how hacked off we are, but personally Im resigned to that fact that the govt are going to get the money somehow and its a case of whether we get it back or not is now the issue.

[reckless]

Fighting on

Once again, the mood on this thread swings from overt optimism to dark pessimisim. Maybe it is the time of year. However every victim is different and has their own level of tolerance regarding worry and risk. For me though, I am not ready to hoist the white flag yet - not after all the good efforts that have gone in to the campaign and considerable support we have gained on various fronts. We are at least a year away from the tax tribunal, and longer for a decision. It is only then that the new proposals regarding treatment of followers and appeals would kick in, IF they indeed become law. In the meantime there will be a general elction and goodness knows what may change. I would rather use the time investing my savings in something that returns more than the paltry HMRC interest. The reasoning that HMRC might treat you more favourably if you start paying now may seem logical in the real world, but not in the twisted and vindictive world of HMRC.
Press on regardless!

[jlg15333]

Hi ST, yes I do want to start voluntarily paying something on account to start chipping away. A CTD is only for a lump sum which I dont have, Im talking hundreds per month but it will give me piece of mind at least Im paying something. Each to their own but if we do get forced to pay it might work in my favour when things like Time to pay arrangements are requested, to show ive actually started to try and make some kind of payment. Having experienced dealing with time to pay the question I was asked before was why have you not attempted to pay anything. If all me paying on a budget plan does is give me more chance of securing a time to pay arrangement thus avoiding bankruptcy, then its worth it to me personally.

It will also help to reduce the interest burden accruing further, granted its small sums but if this takes a couple of years to sort it will make some kind of difference and I need to view it as a savings scheme. IF we win I have a nice buffer coming back to me, if we lose then the balancing payment including interest will be smaller than it would have been had I paid nothing upto that point.

We obviously all need to make our own decisions based on how hacked off we are, but personally Im resigned to that fact that the govt are going to get the money somehow and its a case of whether we get it back or not is now the issue.

Whilst I empathize with the sentiment Smalldog (I think we're all battle weary now) I have no option but to go on to the bitter end and possible bankruptcy since I have not contracted since I left the scheme back in 2007 and my current salary doesn't really leave much to pay HMRC back the enormous sum they say I owe. Besides, I'm not a home owner so stand to lose comparatively little apart from my job and the few assets remaining. I understand they cant take your car if its worth less than £4k?
A couple of years back I rang a Mr B******* to offer to pay half the money with some accident compensation money I won and I offered to come to an arrangement to pay the remainder, but I was told they were not doing deals and would only accept payment in full. He didn't tell me I could make a payment on account which I found out about later on this forum. so, fearing Id lose the money I invested the money and lost it. I just really wish this would hurry up & end as for the past 6.5 yrs my life has been on hold pending this whole fiasco. I regret the day I was ever recommended the Montpellier Tax Planning Solution. I just want the bankruptcy to happen now so I can start my life again.

[Rhydd]

The "right" rate of tax

I tire of moralisers saying that everyone should pay their "fair share" or the "right" rate of tax. No-one knows what the "right" rate of tax is. There is no such thing.

An interesting article arguing for a flat tax in today's "Telegraph" says:

"Voters would be shocked if they realised how much tax is levied on their labour, including on relatively low salaries, and just how complex the system has become once income tax and both kinds of National Insurance are accounted for.

Earnings above £7,717 are briefly taxed at a rate of 12.1pc; above £7,769 this jumps to 22.7pc; then the combined tax rate shoots up to 40.2pc from £9,440, briefly reaching 57.8pc above £41,450; it then falls back to 49pc from £41,558; rockets to a bonkers 66.6pc from £100,000; falls back again 49pc from £118,880 and then settles at 53.4pc from £150,000. Labour’s 5p hike would push the combined tax rate above £150,000 to 57.8pc.

The effective tax rate when benefit withdrawals are included is even crazier."

Full article at: Imagine the explosion of growth if we got serious about tax-cutting - Telegraph

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Once again, the mood on this thread swings from overt optimism to dark pessimisim. Maybe it is the time of year. However every victim is different and has their own level of tolerance regarding worry and risk. For me though, I am not ready to hoist the white flag yet - not after all the good efforts that have gone in to the campaign and considerable support we have gained on various fronts. We are at least a year away from the tax tribunal, and longer for a decision. It is only then that the new proposals regarding treatment of followers and appeals would kick in, IF they indeed become law. In the meantime there will be a general elction and goodness knows what may change. I would rather use the time investing my savings in something that returns more than the paltry HMRC interest. The reasoning that HMRC might treat you more favourably if you start paying now may seem logical in the real world, but not in the twisted and vindictive world of HMRC.
Press on regardless!

Unfortunately that is not true. Proposal 1 on page 15 goes a LOT further than "followers".

Under Proposal 1, they can issue immediate payment notices to users of any scheme registered under DOTAS. That means most schemes operating after 2004.

It is clear that they are looking for a quick and dirty way to deal with the 65,000 open case backlog.

[VictorValiant]

Who Decides?

I note that the issue of "follower" notices is linked to the situation where judicial decisions have already been made on "the same or similar schemes" and therefore the final adjudication can be applied on that basis. I can see that this is intended as a "catch-all" and, as DR says, to speed up the back-log of cases currently lined up for the courts. But who makes the decision as to whether any unassessed scheme is similar to or the same as any scheme that has already been judged on? This is not clear from the documentation as far as I can see. HMRC Judge and Jury? There is also no reference as to the facility to appeal this decision. Its very much case of being presumed guilty in advance and then having to try and prove your innocence.

[screwthis]

Unfortunately that is not true. Proposal 1 on page 15 goes a LOT further than "followers".

Under Proposal 1, they can issue immediate payment notices to users of any scheme registered under DOTAS. That means most schemes operating after 2004.

It is clear that they are looking for a quick and dirty way to deal with the 65,000 open case backlog.

Do you know if proposal 1 is applied retrospectively?
My involvment with this scheme was prior to 2004. Does that mean they will not apply it?

[smalldog]

Unfortunately that is not true. Proposal 1 on page 15 goes a LOT further than "followers".

Under Proposal 1, they can issue immediate payment notices to users of any scheme registered under DOTAS. That means most schemes operating after 2004.

It is clear that they are looking for a quick and dirty way to deal with the 65,000 open case backlog.

This is my fear hence my new approach of starting to make small payments on account. This will no doubt get passed as law come April, maybe some tweaks but cant see it being fundamentally different as all parties need to be seen to support uplift in tax receipts. The bill is intended to shortcut any tribunal hearings so there is no time delay in issuing demands, thats the entire purpose of the bill to mitigate such delays. So rather than the FTT being a decision on whether we have to pay, it will be a decision on whether we get our money back. The way I read this it almost seems like we have P*ssed Gauke and co. off so much they have drafted this specifically to attack us!

So I fully expect HMRC to start sending these out late April/May time, at least that is my view, once again each to their own. Based on my assumption I am starting to make some form of provision regardless of how small, so yep I see 2014 as the end game FTT or Follower notices.

In the meantime if the adjudicator comes to our rescue, or anything else NTRT can pull off in the next 4 months then brilliant and Im not saying they cant or wont. Just this new legislation changes the entire dynamic, and unsurprisingly against our case.