No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[p4nd4b34r]

Thrown in the towel?

We've only just got started.

The NTRT newsletter will explain all.

I'm intrigued by all this, seems so cloak and dagger. So the amendments withdrawal was the plan all along?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I'm intrigued by all this, seems so cloak and dagger. So the amendments withdrawal was the plan all along?

The plan was to withdraw it unless Gauke supported it, which he obviously didn't.

If we had let it go to a division without Gauke's support, we would almost certainly have lost. And that would have been game over.

Even in the unlikely event that the amendment was passed, the Government Whips would have ensured it was defeated in the reporting stage in the full House. Once again game over.

Whitehouse know how to play the game. We do not, which is why we hired them to guide us through this minefield.

[foolishboy]

The plan was to withdraw it unless Gauke supported it, which he obviously didn't.

If we had let it go to a division without Gauke's support, we would almost certainly have lost. And that would have been game over.

Even in the unlikely event that the amendment was passed, the Government Whips would have ensured it was defeated in the reporting stage in the full House. Once again game over.

Whitehouse know how to play the game. We do not, which is why we hired them to guide us through this minefield.

Thanks for clearing this up DR, my confidence has been restored - I doubt many of us appreciate the game that needs to be played - lets leave it to the experts and try and remain positive.

By the way do we know who the members were that spoke out against retrospection? I know one was JRM, but there were 2 others - any ideas?

Thanks

[lucozade]

The plan was to withdraw it unless Gauke supported it, which he obviously didn't.

If we had let it go to a division without Gauke's support, we would almost certainly have lost. And that would have been game over.

Even in the unlikely event that the amendment was passed, the Government Whips would have ensured it was defeated in the reporting stage in the full House. Once again game over.

Whitehouse know how to play the game. We do not, which is why we hired them to guide us through this minefield.

All I can say is I'm utterly disgusted by the so called "game" in a modern day democratic society. We shouldnt need to know how things "work" in that sense.

[centurian]

All I can say is I'm utterly disgusted by the so called "game" in a modern day democratic society. We shouldnt need to know how things "work" in that sense.

WHS

And to add to that, playing this "game" aint free. Last night's amendment was effectively bought with NTRT hard cash - no suggestion of any illegal wrongdoings - merely that to stand any chance of getting a foot in the door, you need to pay lobbyists to show you how to open it.

That's not a knock at Whitehouse, who appear to be doing a good job. More anger at the system that requires such firms to exist

[Ninja]

Playing the game

WHS

And to add to that, playing this "game" aint free. Last night's amendment was effectively bought with NTRT hard cash - no suggestion of any illegal wrongdoings - merely that to stand any chance of getting a foot in the door, you need to pay lobbyists to show you how to open it.

That's not a knock at Whitehouse, who appear to be doing a good job. More anger at the system that requires such firms to exist

I'm sure that if MP's were challenged about their behaviour at such meetings, then the response would be along the lines that they didn't make the rules. They were just following them, so don't blame them.

But surely isn't that what we were doing all along. And we are being blamed...

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

The way ahead

I appreciate that this "game" can be frustrating. I appreciate that understanding the devil in the detail is not easy. I appreciate that it should be much easier.

We're taking on the Establishment people. Not civil unrest or marches or "go slows". We're following a process that allows us to engage with Parliament. I don't like the mechanism any more than the rest of you. But that is what it is and emotion matters not I'm afraid.

In the short time NTRT has been operational they have achieved more than any of us could have managed individually - MP's are listening. And whilst you might want more now - tough. But the silence in the debate last night when Mills and other spoke - on tax avoidance of all things - there were no jibes or quips in the background. MP's listened. When did you think that would happen in Parliament?

So there's a choice.

A. Support NTRT both financially and personally

B. Go and do you own thing

[Ninja]

Option A is the only option

I appreciate that this "game" can be frustrating. I appreciate that understanding the devil in the detail is not easy. I appreciate that it should be much easier.

We're taking on the Establishment people. Not civil unrest or marches or "go slows". We're following a process that allows us to engage with Parliament. I don't like the mechanism any more than the rest of you. But that is what it is and emotion matters not I'm afraid.

In the short time NTRT has been operational they have achieved more than any of us could have managed individually - MP's are listening. And whilst you might want more now - tough. But the silence in the debate last night when Mills and other spoke - on tax avoidance of all things - there were no jibes or quips in the background. MP's listened. When did you think that would happen in Parliament?

So there's a choice.

A. Support NTRT both financially and personally

B. Go and do you own thing

....but it doesn't mean that I have to like it. In fact it stinks.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

WHS

And to add to that, playing this "game" aint free. Last night's amendment was effectively bought with NTRT hard cash - no suggestion of any illegal wrongdoings - merely that to stand any chance of getting a foot in the door, you need to pay lobbyists to show you how to open it.

That's not a knock at Whitehouse, who appear to be doing a good job. More anger at the system that requires such firms to exist

It is a bit like going to court. You can represent yourself but...

Politicians may knock lobbying firms in public, however our experience is that they prefer dealing with them than Westminster outsiders.

[Toocan]

WHS

And to add to that, playing this "game" aint free. Last night's amendment was effectively bought with NTRT hard cash - no suggestion of any illegal wrongdoings - merely that to stand any chance of getting a foot in the door, you need to pay lobbyists to show you how to open it.

That's not a knock at Whitehouse, who appear to be doing a good job. More anger at the system that requires such firms to exist

I agree with what you said - I was very unsettled about engaging a lobbying firm initially. But the fact is that we would not have been heard at all without them. If you’ve been following this thread you will know that we’ve tried to engage MPs in the past – we had only minor success.

This is the system that we have.

Another unfortunate aspect is that when we deal with members of the government, as opposed to plain MPs, we are actually taking to a figure head. They have a separate legal personality that represents the view of the department rather than – oh let’s say – common sense.

Did you listen to the debate on the Finance Bill last night? For the most part the Minister did little more than read out a pre-prepared answer. Compare that to the debate back in 1987 and it is clear that the civil servants have more power today than the Ministers and MPs.

That’s what we’re up against – we’re not fighting the MPs – not even Gauke – it’s the civil servants. And that’s why we need professionals to represent us. Those professionals cost money.

It’s a tiny fraction of what your potential liability is – If everyone contributed the equivalent of their interest bill or even national insurance bill then we could have the best of representation in every area. I’m not asking you do to that, but I am pointing out to those who have not joined the campaign yet that they should be here with us. The more that joins the quicker we can ramp this thing up.