No To Retro Tax – Campaign Against Section 58 Finance Act 2008

[OnYourBikeGB]

I had a meeting yesterday with a MP, not my own. He also has contacts in the Treasury and he has agreed to push for a response to our concerns. He was quite taken aback by the timescales etc.

What was interesting was that this meeting was happening as the whole K2 thing was getting blown up by The Times. I pointed out that for all the moral indignation no-one is talking about retrospection.

Also, I have been following the whole K2 thing quite closely. It's not as clearcut as I would have thought, i.e. the 'hang 'em high' brigade are not as much in the ascendancy as might have been expected. I have heard a number of people actually argue strongly in favour of the right to use legal means to avoid tax. Basically, if it's legal and the Government don't like it, make it illegal, otherwise you are asking people to make voluntary donations. People are wiser to the fact that the Government does not shut the loopholes down because often it suits them not to.

Moving this forward, I wonder what the reaction of the public would be to suggesting that retrospection, going back 7 or 8 years be used against the likes of Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow. I am starting to suspect that this might cause a huge wave of discomfort.

In short, I think there's a turning of the tide. People are sick of being screwed into the ground by HMRC. So although initially I thought the timing of all this couldn't be worse, now I'm starting to wonder, and although it might make it trickier to repeal the legislation in the short term, in the longer term, the Government will have to take on board that people are becoming sick of not being certain of their tax status and sick of always having to look over their shoulder. Looking for Hector with his one size fits all hammer.

This is going to get very interesting.

[portseven]

Wonder if Jimmy Carr would be up for adding support to our campaign?

Anyone acquainted with him?

[Toocan]

Also, I have been following the whole K2 thing quite closely. It's not as clearcut as I would have thought, i.e. the 'hang 'em high' brigade are not as much in the ascendancy as might have been expected. I have heard a number of people actually argue strongly in favour of the right to use legal means to avoid tax. Basically, if it's legal and the Government don't like it, make it illegal, otherwise you are asking people to make voluntary donations. People are wiser to the fact that the Government does not shut the loopholes down because often it suits them not to.

...

In short, I think there's a turning of the tide. People are sick of being screwed into the ground by HMRC. So although initially I thought the timing of all this couldn't be worse, now I'm starting to wonder, and although it might make it trickier to repeal the legislation in the short term, in the longer term, the Government will have to take on board that people are becoming sick of not being certain of their tax status and sick of always having to look over their shoulder. Looking for Hector with his one size fits all hammer.

This is going to get very interesting.

I think Hector has pushed too hard.

The private financial details of all government ministers are now going to be news worthy. We'll see more of this:

Channel 4 in explosive row with millionaire Tories over 'tax dodge' investigation | Mail Online

What about tacit admission of wrong-doing – who had to repay MP expenses?
(partial list)
David Cameron
George Osborne

I think they probably believed they were acting legally – we not only believed we were acting legally – we were. But if a hard line is to be taken on money matters – then why not also take a hard line with MPs expenses. There were no interest payments or penalties for example. (4 MPs were taken to the courts). Why not retrospectively put the matter beyond doubt?


And let's not forget that HMRC themselves are not averse to using tax avoidance schemes. Remember Mapelay STEPS?

HMRC Is tulipe: Hypocrisy, HMRC and Mapeley

The principle behind it all is that UK law and taxation in particular is written down - in statute. A rule book that is available for all to see. HMRC are attempting to pull us back hundreds of years to a time prior to the Magna Carta. We still have a right to due process.

It doesn’t seem to be being talked about, but what is all of this covering up?

Well, HMRC know all about these tax avoidance schemes – they have the DoTAS regulation which gives them notification of all avoidance schemes up front. They have absolutely no excuse – all they need to do to close a scheme is tell their Minister (woof woof) to make a statement to Parliament – the actual detailed legislation can follow at the next Finance Bill.

HMRC have proved that this system works with the recent Barclays scheme.

So all of this talk on tax avoidance is really covering up one thing: HMRC incompetence.

And while we’re about it – benefit fraud is a criminal act. Tax evasion is a criminal act. Tax avoidance – in all its forms from pensions to the wallpaper trust - is legal.

This road, HMRC, leads to tyranny.

[DJH]

jimmy Carr

Wonder if Jimmy Carr would be up for adding support to our campaign?

Anyone acquainted with him?

Jimmy Carr has been on twitter in the last half an hour talking about his tax situation. Maybe we could approach him via there and ask him to take a look at the group or at least warn him about the possible retrospection?

I was going to do it myself but thought I'd better check first.

[swede]

I had a meeting yesterday with a MP, not my own. He also has contacts in the Treasury and he has agreed to push for a response to our concerns. He was quite taken aback by the timescales etc.

What was interesting was that this meeting was happening as the whole K2 thing was getting blown up by The Times. I pointed out that for all the moral indignation no-one is talking about retrospection.

Also, I have been following the whole K2 thing quite closely. It's not as clearcut as I would have thought, i.e. the 'hang 'em high' brigade are not as much in the ascendancy as might have been expected. I have heard a number of people actually argue strongly in favour of the right to use legal means to avoid tax. Basically, if it's legal and the Government don't like it, make it illegal, otherwise you are asking people to make voluntary donations. People are wiser to the fact that the Government does not shut the loopholes down because often it suits them not to.

Moving this forward, I wonder what the reaction of the public would be to suggesting that retrospection, going back 7 or 8 years be used against the likes of Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow. I am starting to suspect that this might cause a huge wave of discomfort.

In short, I think there's a turning of the tide. People are sick of being screwed into the ground by HMRC. So although initially I thought the timing of all this couldn't be worse, now I'm starting to wonder, and although it might make it trickier to repeal the legislation in the short term, in the longer term, the Government will have to take on board that people are becoming sick of not being certain of their tax status and sick of always having to look over their shoulder. Looking for Hector with his one size fits all hammer.

This is going to get very interesting.

It was very interesting listening to LBC this morning, it was only soundbites but every opinion aired - and it maybe just the few minutes I listened to - but they basically said, "it's legal, the government know about it so tough, and its only Cameron who seems to be complaining about it", another said, "its common knowledge that to pay less tax, you can move money offshore, its legal.".

Maybe the producer uses a scheme. Either way, I bet if it's ever closed, its done so prospectively.

I do worry that next Tuesdays "amendment" might be seen by MPs who dont pay close attention (and lets face it, there will be plenty), in the same light as simply closing schemes down.... when it very much isn't.

[fatbot]

Also, I have been following the whole K2 thing quite closely. It's not as clearcut as I would have thought, i.e. the 'hang 'em high' brigade are not as much in the ascendancy as might have been expected. I have heard a number of people actually argue strongly in favour of the right to use legal means to avoid tax. Basically, if it's legal and the Government don't like it, make it illegal, otherwise you are asking people to make voluntary donations. People are wiser to the fact that the Government does not shut the loopholes down because often it suits them not to.

Moving this forward, I wonder what the reaction of the public would be to suggesting that retrospection, going back 7 or 8 years be used against the likes of Jimmy Carr and Gary Barlow. I am starting to suspect that this might cause a huge wave of discomfort.

In short, I think there's a turning of the tide. People are sick of being screwed into the ground by HMRC. So although initially I thought the timing of all this couldn't be worse, now I'm starting to wonder, and although it might make it trickier to repeal the legislation in the short term, in the longer term, the Government will have to take on board that people are becoming sick of not being certain of their tax status and sick of always having to look over their shoulder. Looking for Hector with his one size fits all hammer.

This is going to get very interesting.

Yep, I went to bed last night feeling very dispondent, thinking this K2 thing had completely scuppered our chances on Tuesday but I woke up thinking the opposite - maybe there's an opportunity here to bring our plight into public awareness and point out that anyone who's ever used any sort of clever tax planning could suddenly face themselves facing financial ruin if HMRC are allowed to get away with retrospection here.

I think our chances of getting our amendment through quietly are now gone, but maybe we can get it through noisily.

[mrkitchen]

Gauke was on the Today programme this morning, discussing retro, etc did anyone hear it ?

[Buzby]

jimmy carr

Wonder if Jimmy Carr would be up for adding support to our campaign?

Anyone acquainted with him?

Jimmy Carr on twitter

Im no longer involved in it and will in future conduct my financial affairs much more responsibly.

Apologies to everyone.

looks like Jimmy has had enough of tax avoidance

[TalkingCheese]

Gauke was on the Today programme this morning, discussing retro, etc did anyone hear it ?

This was his previous stint in February: Selling the Rule of Law for £500m | Adam Smith Institute

Be interesting to hear how this mornings interview compares. I wonder if they are stepping up there own campaign in the light of this one not going away ??

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

"Morally unacceptable" Mr Cameron?

Whilst he is happy to wade in with this comment about the K2 scheme and Mr. Carr I also watched him wading in at the G20 during a kick off business meeting advising wealthy French to move to the UK to avoid the high tax regime of their homeland.

David Cameron pledge: French react with fury as Cameron calls rates 'uncompetitive' and 'wrong' | Mail Online

Oh dear Mr. Cameron. If we're going to use turns of phrase on morality, I would suggest mon brave refrains from applying it to tax avoidance if you're quite happy to advise the French to avoid tax in their own country by coming here. Poaching comes to mind and I don't equate that to morality, do you?

I can hear Mnsr Hollande now - Touche!