New PCG IR35 Questionnaire

[swamp]

I've enjoyed the other fringe benefits of PCG membership for a few years now, but I do back the sentiment that last year they became a bit of an embarrassment and deserved a vote of no confidence.

trying to make out, following failure, that attempting to sort out IR35 wasn't their primary objective.

Course it was, and they failed, at least admit to that, and gain credibility for the other things they do (which IMHO are "on the side" with IR35 being the primary concern)

This article from 2001 makes interesting reading:

BBC News | BUSINESS | IR35 tax challenge fails

"The UK's Conservative Party has pledged to abolish the controversial IR35 tax if it wins the next election."

WTF happened?!

[malvolio]

WTF happened?!

They have Lib Dumbs in the Coalition.

[Boo]

Having a single client, having a client who used to employ you, having clients in addition to employment are all irrelevant to your IR35 status.

Boo

Not necessarily true Boo

Strictly, that's not true, as working practices matter. At least indirectly, a previous relationship of employer-employee can make it tougher to break from being considered "part and parcel." Not a primary factor, but you also cannot dismiss it. Further, these things are likely to matter in terms of being investigated (e.g. for the business tests), if not ultimately deemed employed.

It is precisely because the working practices are definitive (not just that they matter) that what I said is correct :

If the relationship that exists, when the contracts with the agency/YourCo are looked through, is that of employer-employee then IR35 applies. If not then not.

There is simply no reference in the regulation to the number of clients, the previous relationship, or relationships with other companies. IR35 simply permits the actual working practices to be examined instead of the contractual ones.

The statement I made is completely accurate and definitive of IR35, if you disagree you haven't understood it.

Boo

[SueEllen]

They have Lib Dumbs in the Coalition.

Do you really think the Tories with their Lib Dem partners would get rid of IR35 when they have been caught avoiding the payment of employers NI and pension payments in their government departments?

At the moment the media are screaming loudly about anyone who they see as avoiding paying proper taxes on their income i.e. anyone not under PAYE. (The papers owners' are exempt from this witch hunt.)

[SueEllen]

It is precisely because the working practices are definitive (not just that they matter) that what I said is correct :

If the relationship that exists, when the contracts with the agency/YourCo are looked through, is that of employer-employee then IR35 applies. If not then not.

There is simply no reference in the regulation to the number of clients, the previous relationship, or relationships with other companies. IR35 simply permits the actual working practices to be examined instead of the contractual ones.

The statement I made is completely accurate and definitive of IR35, if you disagree you haven't understood it.

Boo

HMRC don't see it like that and unfortuantely they are the ones who attempt to enforce the legislation on businesses.

This legislation is written in a completely woolly fashion so each case needs a judge to rule on it to give an definitive answer to make HMRC back down.

HMRC don't have a duty of care so while you can argue with them that your contract is between a company you are employee and director of and an agency, they can cause you as much distress as they feel like.

[jamesbrown]

The statement I made is completely accurate and definitive of IR35, if you disagree you haven't understood it.

Boo

Your point is accurate but imprecise and, therefore, misleading. A previous relationship of employment can certainly have a strong bearing on whether someone continues to be "part and parcel" of an organization. To sidestep that by suggesting that it isn't addressed by the regulations is a superficial argument.

[jamesbrown]

This legislation is written in a completely woolly fashion so each case needs a judge to rule on it to give an definitive answer to make HMRC back down.

Precisely.

[gingerjedi]

They have Lib Dumbs in the Coalition.

Really??

Ahmmm...

https://www.pcg.org.uk/cms/index.php...ews&Itemid=995

A group of Liberal Democrat MPs has called for the suspension of IR35. The Working Group on Information Technology , headed by Julian Huppert MP, makes the recommendations in a policy paper ‘Preparing the Ground: Stimulating Growth in the Digital Economy’.

The paper argues that “Although we recognise the problem IR35 was supposed to tackle, it has not served the needs or the interests of IT contractors. The taxation system must evolve to support modern working practices rather than discouraging small businesses”
In an effort to boost growth in the IT sector, the group states “we recommend the suspension of IR35 in order to gather more data on permanent abolition.”

In addition to making recommendations regarding IR35, the paper also deals with issues such as procurement and intellectual property.

The paper is set to be discussed at the Liberal Democrat’s conference later this month. PCG work closely with the Liberal Democrats and looks forward to engaging with Julian Huppert MP at the September conference.

[swamp]

Do you really think the Tories with their Lib Dem partners would get rid of IR35 when they have been caught avoiding the payment of employers NI and pension payments in their government departments?

At the moment the media are screaming loudly about anyone who they see as avoiding paying proper taxes on their income i.e. anyone not under PAYE. (The papers owners' are exempt from this witch hunt.)

The timing of this is terrible. The first major review of IR35 in thirteen years happens against a backdrop of newspaper stories about executives and their 'personal service companies'.

Anyway why are the Tories so concerned about IR35? It was one of the first things they announced when they took office, and two years later it seems they just want to carry on with it as normal. Have they forgotten they once pledged to abolish it? Why even open the can of worms only to perform a spectacular u-turn?

As for blaming the Lib Dems, they have actually done more than any party (or organisation) to oppose it. Remember this Early Day Motion?

Bill goes to Parliament to abolish IR35

[SueEllen]

As for blaming the Lib Dems, they have actually done more than any party (or organisation) to oppose it.

That's because unlike Labour and the Tories lots of Lib Dem parliamentary candidates actually have to have had proper jobs including running small businesses.