Budget 2012

[Old Greg]

I have contractor colleagues who line manage permies. I would say that makes them integral.

[earningacrust]

A lot of contractors manage both permies and other Contractors - as a Project Manager I do this all the time. I wouldn't consider myself integral or fundamental to the organisation though. It'll be interesting to see the government's definition of the word.

I don't have the final say in the business strategy, I don't sit on the board and usually I report progress to and request key decisions from someone else within the organisation. The Company wouldn't suffer a major financial loss if I wasn't there (they'd just hire another PM and get someone else to line manage the teams). We go in, deliver/manage something, hand it over, then move on.

[Old Greg]

A lot of contractors manage both permies and other Contractors - as a Project Manager I do this all the time. I wouldn't consider myself integral or fundamental to the organisation though. It'll be interesting to see the government's definition of the word.

I don't have the final say in the business strategy, I don't sit on the board and usually I report progress to and request key decisions from someone else within the organisation. The Company wouldn't suffer a major financial loss if I wasn't there (they'd just hire another PM and get someone else to line manage the teams). We go in, deliver/manage something, hand it over, then move on.

I'm a PM and I task manage colleagues but I don't line manage them or do their annual appraisals etc.

[BlasterBates]

Have to hand it to the government this does simplify things, what they've done is shifted repsonsibility to the client, so rather than having to "police" thousands of contractors , which is impossible, there will be relatively few large companies like the banks and the government where contractors work , where the criteria will be worked out. In the end it won't be up to the contractor anymore it's the client who'll stipulate whether the role is "integral" or not. This does have similarities with Switzerland where some companies dictate that you pay your NI (Swiss equiv.) to comply with Swiss law on temporary working. Some contractors are exempt and they do allow some contractors to operate through their own company, but actually very few, most are deemed as temporary employees.

[MyUserName]

I am integral to the project I am on but I am not integral to the company. I would think that would be as far as it goes for most of us?

[MarillionFan]

I'm a PM and I task manage colleagues but I don't line manage them or do their annual appraisals etc.

That still wouldn't make you integral. If you were setting corporate direction or the whole company would grind to a halt if you weren't there then you're integral otherwise you're as expendable as the next person.

[Old Greg]

That still wouldn't make you integral. If you were setting corporate direction or the whole company would grind to a halt if you weren't there then you're integral otherwise you're as expendable as the next person.

I don't think 'integral' means 'critical', as in an interim director. If you are managing staff, I think you are integrated into the employee structure, whereas if you are a PM who is task managing permies who sit within a separate management structure.

We could debate this but the government might take it's own view. It's the counterpart of D&C. If you are asserting line management D&C on permies, then you must be subject to it from above, or the people below you are orphaned from the main management structure.

[BlasterBates]

In the end the description is "fluffy" but because the client takes the hit, i.e. they're responsible for paying it, and there is no advantage in avoiding it for them, it's going to be interpreted fairly conservatively, i.e. it doesn't look good.

[simondolan]

I don't think 'integral' means 'critical', as in an interim director. If you are managing staff, I think you are integrated into the employee structure, whereas if you are a PM who is task managing permies who sit within a separate management structure.

We could debate this but the government might take it's own view. It's the counterpart of D&C. If you are asserting line management D&C on permies, then you must be subject to it from above, or the people below you are orphaned from the main management structure.

I think we are missing a crucial part of this. It is not that you are integral, it is "office holders/controlling persons who are integral to the running of an organisation"

So, you have to be integral AND an office holder or controlling person

[psychocandy]

Yep - was a fundamental quote used for years. "Every man is entitled if he can to order his affairs so as that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be. If he succeeds in ordering them so as to secure this result, then, however unappreciative the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or his fellow taxpayers may be of his ingenuity, he cannot be compelled to pay an increased tax.
Thomas Tomlin, Baron Tomlin, in the UK House of Lords case, IRC v. Duke of Westminster (1936) 19 TC 490, [1936"

Doesn't fit well with today's political correctness does it. The Govt have for years now been deliberately blurring the lines between avoidance and evasion to the extent that now the general public think them to be the same thing

As did the chancellor in his speech yesterday mentioning evasion and avoidance in pretty much the same sentence.

Really winds me up it does. If you're going to go down that road then paying into a pension is tax evasion after all - you're paying into the pension and not then paying tax on it because it suits you....