Offshore umbrella schemes

[geoff from contracta IOM]

I'm not here to cause debates amongst accountants, this site belongs to the Contractors and we're here to offer advice when they ask for it.
BN66, offshore income etc is already well documented on this forum and contractorUK.
No doubt there are schemes which get around offshore income, for now, I'm simply stating that there are other entities you can contract through and still achieving a decent standard of living. That way not worrying about potential risks which some of my clients have experienced firsthand.

Daniel, my motivation is solely to further informed debate on the subject and balance what used to be very one sided responses on here and I don't think anyone, myself included should make sweeping statements without being able to evidence them.

[malvolio]

To answer the OP question….

Regarding the old EBT schemes (pre-dec 2009), some users did get a HMRC query letter, but I know of many who didn’t (going back as far as 2006).

And I suspect they won't until HMRC come up with a way to separate out EBT users that doesn't damage the big corporates. Which may take a while... But they may try for a Plan B, this issue isn't going to go away.

However, in terms of risk analysis, I've said beofre that existing EBT users are probably OK but anyone taking out a new one since the recent rule changes is painting a large circular sign on their back.

[geoff from contracta IOM]

And I suspect they won't until HMRC come up with a way to separate out EBT users that doesn't damage the big corporates. Which may take a while... But they may try for a Plan B, this issue isn't going to go away.

However, in terms of risk analysis, I've said beofre that existing EBT users are probably OK but anyone taking out a new one since the recent rule changes is painting a large circular sign on their back.

Mal is that an admission that you and many many others freely dispensed advice that was completely wrong about EBT's ?

[AtW]

Look, you know nothing. Learn your trade, then get clever with the money. You're not in a position to judge any of the more esoteric schemes.

WHS

malvolio for CUK Poster of the Year 2011!

[AtW]

Your marriage will probably also breakdown.

That alone will cost 50% of what you've got in total and in all probability will happen before HMRC gets the rest and bankrupt you in the process. Is this worth 10% more? Better work to increase your sales/rate by that amount, much safer.

[malvolio]

Mal is that an admission that you and many many others freely dispensed advice that was completely wrong about EBT's ?

What is this "Wrong"...?

My stance has always been that (a) they are higher risk then conventional arrangements or they wouldn't be paing higher returns, (b) the returns are rarely sufficient to warrant that extra risk and (c) they are mostly sold on highly incomplete information so novice contractors and any that don't have a fairly good understanding of the wider tax landscape should keep away or get burned.

I happen to beleive that if you live, work and are paid in the UK you should be paying UK taxes, While that is not germane to the risk argument, it is why I don't support people taking the EBT route and I seriously disapprove of all the secrecy surrounding the schemes, even though I understand why you guys think it necessary. If the schemes are safe, tell people how they work up front.

And if you go back over the years, I have never deviated from that approach towrads EBTs. BN66 and Tract are different.

Finally, I only said existing users may be OK for now. Don't turn that into any kind of support for you selling new schemes, which I think is risky in the extreme. The current nonsense of "I'm self employed" won't last since it is patently ridiculous. EBTs are for long term corporates, not .Net coders.

HTH

[BlasterBates]

Do not understimate the number of people who have been burned by offshore tax planers, it's not an exceptional unlucky few. There are a huge number, and the oney that get burnt get very badly burned indeed.

DON'T TOUCH

[geoff from contracta IOM]

What is this "Wrong"...?

My stance has always been that (a) they are higher risk then conventional arrangements or they wouldn't be paing higher returns, (b) the returns are rarely sufficient to warrant that extra risk and (c) they are mostly sold on highly incomplete information so novice contractors and any that don't have a fairly good understanding of the wider tax landscape should keep away or get burned.

I happen to beleive that if you live, work and are paid in the UK you should be paying UK taxes, While that is not germane to the risk argument, it is why I don't support people taking the EBT route and I seriously disapprove of all the secrecy surrounding the schemes, even though I understand why you guys think it necessary. If the schemes are safe, tell people how they work up front.

And if you go back over the years, I have never deviated from that approach towrads EBTs. BN66 and Tract are different.

Finally, I only said existing users may be OK for now. Don't turn that into any kind of support for you selling new schemes, which I think is risky in the extreme. The current nonsense of "I'm self employed" won't last since it is patently ridiculous. EBTs are for long term corporates, not .Net coders.

HTH

I wasn't trying to troll

Just that whilst there are many varied opinions on the subject of tax mitigation from the moral stance we all have to conceed that in terms of the current schemes in existence everything said on the subject is an opinion. My position is that I am favouring the opinion of QC's , big 4 tax accountants and chartered tax advisers rather than the opinion of those less informed on the subject. That does not mean that the discussion is not worth having though and your point about if you don't do the research don't use it is very valid !

[geoff from contracta IOM]

Do not understimate the number of people who have been burned by offshore tax planers, it's not an exceptional unlucky few. There are a huge number, and the oney that get burnt get very badly burned indeed.

DON'T TOUCH

Very helpful of you to emphasise my point about the uninformed and factually devoid offering opinion ! Thanks

[BlasterBates]

Very helpful of you to emphasise my point about the uninformed and factually devoid offering opinion ! Thanks

You can't dispute that thousands of contractors have had their fingers badly burnt because it's true.

I've also noticed now how offshore tax planers like yourself are suggesting that high court judges don't understand the law (BN66). Tax planers have concoted their own view of UK law and claim they know it better than, HMRC, the government and high court judges.

I also know of contractors who took the advice of tax planners în Europe and ended up in jail. Their scheme was of course legally water tight and it was the judges who got it wrong.