BN66 - Court of Appeal and beyond

[OnYourBikeGB]

I agree that it will be hard for many of us (me included!) to just say ok, we will await another few years (or how long it takes) , before we do anything. I agree with those who say that our lives have been on hold for SO LONG now....

I just wish that HMRC would see some sense in thinking that if they just asked for the initial amounts, then they may well get in a lot more money than they would if they held out for all the interest payments as well!!

Maybe there is a case for Montpelier to ask who wants to negotiate and who wants to fight another day?

HMRC may actually not be able to offer a deal to some, but not to others. This was part of earlier debates with AJ when he claimed he negotiated a deal, but in reality there was really nothing. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think that was the final analysis. I do not believe HMRC actually have the discretion to offer a deal only to a few. Also, to put yourself in their shoes, why should they? So far there has been 7 verdicts given by 4 different judges, 6 of those verdicts by LJs, all in HMRCs favour. Would you bet against yourself in that position? Forget HMRC counting the beans, I sincerely don't believe they think like that. They are a faceless bureaucracy and those individuals that we have grown to dislike so much do not return that enmity. We are just another box ticked, a slap on the back and maybe a promotion. That's all. Sympathy and understanding is not an option. If they get their money now or later, it doesn't mean a lot, not in the sums of money they deal with.

Get your money ready, get yourself into the best possible shape you can financially to survive, and use the time as DR says. Hope that SC sees things differently, but don't get yourself in any deeper so you depend on it. I'm sorry if that sounds bleak, and we are not completely without hope, but it is realistic.

I honestly believed that the length of deliberation was to our benefit, and it clearly wasn't. I have no intentions of getting my hopes up again. If this drags on for another couple of years, I do not want it hanging over me anymore. I will set my money aside, and get on with my life. If the day does come where I have to write that cheque, I want to write it, mail it, and walk away.

[Slobbo]

The statute of limitations kicks in once the loss is known. As the loss is not yet known, or indeed a given, my understanding of the law says this means the clock has not yet started ticking for action against the provider. IF there is indeed a case for them to answer. Certainly when I joined the scheme in 2004 they told me it was watertight, so IF HMRC had stated otherwise to them by that point, or people were already under investigation, they would have a case to answer.

And that is an 'IF'.

Simple matter is that if HMRC had known it didn't work why wait until 2008 to change the law. They wouldn't have changed (I call it a change even if they think it is a clarification) the law if a law already existed which covered it. So how could Montpellier know it didn't work if HMRC couldn't/didn't prove it at the time. The very fact that they changed the law indicates that what came before it proves it wasn't adequate.

I am upset because the risk as it was explained to me wasn't how it went down. The retrospective bit is unprecedented.
I still think our best hope lies with MP. I think we are all lucky (well in an odd sort of way) that we chose MP. How many other scheme operators do you think are still around now fighting for their customers.

[smalldog]

Ive been reading through all the posts quietly and understand there is upset at the ruling but im not convinced it should be directed at MP. Im not saying they are perfect but as people have said already this is unprecedented and MP gave assurances based on what is the norm. The norm as we have seen with other cases is to close down prospectively, nobody even WG could have anticipated such an underhand move to make our case retro.

I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of the comments about preparing for the worst at any SC. I for one will now take stock and ensure I have a financial escape route should the final showdown go against us. I dont want to pay but as has been said already, I will write the cheque and get on with my life.

On another note I would be curious to know if HMRC would waive any CGT on property sale should the money eventually be due. The only way I could pay would be by selling an investment property which in the normal world would attract CGT, I assume it could be argued there is no gain if this money is going to HMRC anyway.

[Godber]

A bridge too far!! What Next?

I have been lurking for a number of years now, and genuinly believed that we would have received a more balanced and informed hearing from the COA - apparently not!! My liability is creeping towards £200K, and the prospect of potentially waiting another 18mths will push me over the edge!!!

I'm not a great fan of the CTD option as this plays into the Hands of HMRC, but given that the Pension provisions have recently changed i'm going to seek Financial guidance to see if I can "mop up" any unused allowances from the last 5 years? I believe under the new rules you are able to utilise any unused pension provisions up to £50k per year?

Although MP have fought a "Good Fight" I am seriously considering a claim against their PI Insurance?

[FredBasset]

And what support has been offered to us considering the vast sums we have paid in fees? Does anyone on this forum actually understand their liability? Thought not.

Yes, I asked MP for it and they provided it, as they did for many others. I'm sure if you ask they will give you a detailed spreadsheet?

I hoped but didn't really expect to win today. The SC may be different, I'm happy to wait but I realise I'm fortunate in being able to pay if necessary. The interest on the this is much cheaper than the offset mortgage.

I don't think we will get the hearing we need until the SC. Remember, the great work DR has done to pull us all together - United we stand, divided we fall.

[bombaycat]

I forgot all about this until I was on the bus on my way home. (obviously I'm too relaxed)
Bit disappointing but we would probably have been heading to the appeal court regardless of the outcome so nothing has really changed yet.
Holding pattern being maintained here....seems to me if you have the money CTD it or invest it, if you don't then how you gonna pay right now anyway?
See you all in a few more months...will be dropping by to keep up to date.
Chins up guys, no bailliffs at the door yet.
;-)

[BolshieBastard]

I think it's important to note that all 3 judges ruled against us in both cases. The way I look at it is that I will set my money aside via CTD and what I can as savings against the outstanding interest and treat it as lost. I am not being pessimistic, I am being pragmatic. It is important to take stock and look harsh facts directly in the face. I had hoped for a split on at least one of the cases, and we didn't get it, and that's the simple, unpalatable truth.

This is exactly how I view it. My money has been in a CTD now (would have been earlier but MP said 'dont bother, we're going to win.') for a number of years. I kissed it goodbye after hearing the first court decision.

I too am pragmatic. I see 4 judges decided against us despite the blatant acts by hmrc. There has been no natural justice here or, logic (despite some wannabe cyber warrior wanting to attack my attitude).

[javadude]

...There has been no natural justice here or, logic...

Whenever I explain the case to someone I always get a stunned "But that's not right - you can't change the law retrospectively - that's just not fair". They can't believe that the government would do that to people.

I figure there's no point worrying about anything that hasn't happened yet and the final decision of the justice system hasn't happened yet. I'll do my best to try and find the money just in case we don't get justice but apart from that life goes on. When we win at least I'll have a bit of money to put in my pension.

[Godber]

Yet another Disapointment!! What Next?

Tried to post previously but appear to have failed!!!

I've been lurking for a few years now and was bitterly disappointed with this mornings decision. Being on the wrong side of £180K liability, and having been kicked too often I am now looking at what options are open. I have ruled out CTD as this to me sends the wrong message to HMRC? - that's the conspiracy theorist in me coming out.

Given that Pension Provisions have recently changed I am going to speak to my IFA to see if I am able to utilise any unused Pension Allowances (Up to £50K). Although I'll need to find away of funding this! Other options are to put MPs PI insurers on notice - again i'll speak to my IFA to see what the best course of action is to lodge this?

I'd also like to thank DR and other for keeping me sane over the last few years - a big thanks

[silver_lining]

venting..... calm blue waters...

Just airing my views and exercising my demons! I too was at the RCJ today and as others have already said, not a lot to report other than the LJ expected MP to Appeal; sadly they were not there to answer !

Some comments on the results and thread since:

1. I don't think there is a deal to be done with HMRC - as we have now moved from polishing the turd to rolling it in glitter, we are arguably desperate; not to mention they are in the business of cutting their nose to spite their face - i.e. bankrupt people for no return. But give it a whirl; any traction I personally would be interested to hear about......

2. Just my personal view, but I believe it was an up hill battle from the get go; nonetheless we did have a chance and we have a flicker of hope left ; I think the fact we are challenging on A1P1 and secondly and probably more importantly trying to essentially overturn the public interest - moral argument...is proving too tall an order. After reading the judgement, I was very surprised that all LJs basically echoed the HC view - ; even if we had lost I expected to get some balance of opinion; that for me was the sound of nails in the coffin.

3. I now feel even if we had the best brief fighting for us - there are not too many new angles to approach this from - it now seems a case of getting lucky with a judge who feels and interprets differently, not sure he/ she is born yet.

The real hope for me is PWC to be honest....

4. I don't think blaming MP is fair; they were selling a product and hence caveat empor and all that..... and I genuinely believe no one seen this coming including them. You have to remember, HMRC could do nothing for years and so legislation was rushed through.... if there is anyone to blame, its the government - look at the forking legal legacy this will leave.... Also note MP are still fighting, they have met that side of the bargain, regardless of whose interests it serves, it helps us if we choose to jump on the carousel, you can of course always settle......

So where are we now - well I am reminded of that infamous dialogue from dumb and dumber -

"Lloyd: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me... ending up together?
Mary: Well, Lloyd, that's difficult to say. I mean, we don't really...
Lloyd: Hit me with it! Just give it to me straight! I came a long way just to see you, Mary. The least you can do is level with me. What are my chances?
Mary: Not good.
Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?
Mary: I'd say more like one out of a million.

Lloyd: So you're telling me there's a chance... "

I don't think its quite that bad..... but the odds lowered today in my view, also note he got the girl in the end !

Chin up and take action I think is the message of the day, use any time we get wisely now.

SL