BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[OnYourBikeGB]

The OTS have published this morning:

http://www.pcg.org.uk/cms/documents/...m%20report.pdf

Highlights:
1) Scrap IR35
2) Merge income tax and national insurance (thus raising the headline rate of tax by about 10 percentage points (can't see the politicians going for that somehow))
3) Tax dividends and savings interest as if they are salary (another vote winner)

Errr - number 3 looks a bit ominous. Is that not the same as saying, "**** you. We recognise you are a small business taking risks etc etc, but just give us the money anyway".

[Incognito]

Whilst the long delay could mean that they are considering it properly (or could just be busy with something else?), I'm also a bit worried.
If they felt that it should be an HMRC win, maybe they're just trying to work out how they can 'cap' the ruling so that it doesn't open the floodgates of retrospection for everyone/everything.
To me, our case was always pretty straightforward, so I can't understand why it's taking them so long.

The Court of Appeal judges that heard your case are not simply deliberating on your judgement. They still continue to hear other appeals. Typically a member of the Court of Appeal will have at least one day a week allotted for reading case papers or judgment writing, the rest of his time is then taken up in Court or with other judicial functions.

You should be reassured that your case is taking this long in delivering a judgement. It clearly demonstrates they are deliberating about something. If it was open and shut then they would have passed judgement long before this.

[smalldog]

OTS article

this is an interesting snippet from the OTS article:

The need for certainty
4.6 The OTS has spent some time probing small businesses and their advisers for what really
does lie underneath these strongly-expressed concerns. The key issue can be summarised as: certainty. What is needed are changes to the way the tax system is administered so that it will deliver certainty to businesses; certainty that their tax affairs are clear and accepted and they can move on and concentrate on doing business. This needs to be balanced with HMRC’s legitimate need, which our commentators accept and support, to police the tax system.

4.7 A specific example of the increasing lack of certainty is the way that the rules on ‘discovery’ are extending. HMRC’s assertions, increasingly supported by case law, are extending the boundaries of discovery considerably. The consequence is that the certainty offered in the principles of self assessment is being eroded

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Personally I wouldn't be suprised if we have to wait several more months.

In the 'Mayes v. HMRC' case, referred to earlier, it has already been 8 months since the hearing with no sign of a judgment.

I would hope that we might get it before the courts break for summer recess at the end of July, which would be 9 months after the hearing.

However, it is not totally unheard of for cases to take more than a year.

Perhaps we might get a decision by Xmas.

[robinhood]

Personally I wouldn't be suprised if we have to wait several more months.

In the 'Mayes v. HMRC' case, referred to earlier, it has already been 8 months since the hearing with no sign of a judgment.

I would hope that we might get it before the courts break for summer recess at the end of July, which would be 9 months after the hearing.

However, it is not totally unheard of for cases to take more than a year.

Perhaps we might get a decision by Xmas.

Doesn't worry me in the slightest - the longer it goes on for the more time i get waiting for my AIM oil stocks to go through the roof and clear the debt. Not doing too badly so far but some way to go !

[Emigre]

Doesn't worry me in the slightest - the longer it goes on for the more time i get waiting for my AIM oil stocks to go through the roof and clear the debt. Not doing too badly so far but some way to go !

I'm just picturing the excitement every time you get a valuation on your stocks and then balancing it with the complete dejection if you had to hand over all the gains to HMRC not forgetting of course that you would likely have a CGT liability to pay as well. Congratulations on doing something about it; I suspect the majority of people have simply taken a look at the numbers and thought far too big to sort out.

The exceptional gains that are necessary to make such a strategy even a remote possibility perfectly frames the plight that HMRC have dealt to the majority of us with the disproportionate, inappropriate and flagrantly unfair legislation that is S58 FA2008. It would be right and fair for the perpetrators of the legislation to understand personally the stress and suffering that they are causing.

[robinhood]

I'm just picturing the excitement every time you get a valuation on your stocks and then balancing it with the complete dejection if you had to hand over all the gains to HMRC not forgetting of course that you would likely have a CGT liability to pay as well. Congratulations on doing something about it; I suspect the majority of people have simply taken a look at the numbers and thought far too big to sort out.

The exceptional gains that are necessary to make such a strategy even a remote possibility perfectly frames the plight that HMRC have dealt to the majority of us with the disproportionate, inappropriate and flagrantly unfair legislation that is S58 FA2008. It would be right and fair for the perpetrators of the legislation to understand personally the stress and suffering that they are causing.

Agree that it is high risk but pretty much the only way I have of reaching my target in the timeframe allowed !
It isn't though quite such a remote possibility as you might think - there are numerous recent examples of where such a strategy can work. GKP was around 8p in 2009 and hit £1.90 earlier in the year, Caza only last year was around 3p and now 50p. You need to do a fair amount of research and luck but has to be a better option than sticking it in a building society and it is a lot more exciting !

[moira under the stairs]

I'm just picturing the excitement every time you get a valuation on your stocks and then balancing it with the complete dejection if you had to hand over all the gains to HMRC not forgetting of course that you would likely have a CGT liability to pay as well. Congratulations on doing something about it; I suspect the majority of people have simply taken a look at the numbers and thought far too big to sort out.

The exceptional gains that are necessary to make such a strategy even a remote possibility perfectly frames the plight that HMRC have dealt to the majority of us with the disproportionate, inappropriate and flagrantly unfair legislation that is S58 FA2008. It would be right and fair for the perpetrators of the legislation to understand personally the stress and suffering that they are causing.

Emigre... I agree with your statement.. But... just think about the perpetrators we are dealing with here.. 'Low life’s' is to kind of description for them... objects (deliberate exemption from using the word people) that are working towards an appraisal or bonus (sad isn’t it); they don’t give a squat about us. Don’t forget we have done nothing wrong.. We have used arrangements that were available at the time.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Agree that it is high risk but pretty much the only way I have a hope of reaching my target in the timeframe allowed !
It isn't though quite a such remote possibility as you might think - there are numerous recent examples of where such a strategy can work. GKP was around 8p in 2009 and hit £1.90 earlier in the year, Caza only last year was around 3p and now 50p. You need to do a fair amount of research and luck but has to be a better option than sticking it in a building society and it is a lot more exciting !

I'm with you 100% on this.

In a perverse way, HMRC have probably actually done me a favour longer term in that they've forced me to be far more adventurous with savings than I used to be. Fortune favours the brave as they say!

I know this is a bit off topic but, out of curiosity, do you have a plan for cutting losses in these stocks or are they 'all or nothing bets'? Do you have a plan for taking profits?

[robinhood]

I'm with you 100% on this.

In a perverse way, HMRC have probably actually done me a favour longer term in that they've forced me to be far more adventurous with savings than I used to be. Fortune favours the brave as they say!

I know this is a bit off topic but, out of curiosity, do you have a plan for cutting losses in these stocks or are they 'all or nothing bets'? Do you have a plan for taking profits?

They are pretty much all or nothing. Patience is the key as I learnt last year when getting nervous and deciding to sell all of one particular oily at 6p. Now they are 20p. I'm up so far 35% but longway to go !

Coincidently todays Investors Chronicle list 7 oilys they reckon are set for the big time. Luckily i have 2 of those already !