BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[loser]

HMRC incompetent?

To put it in perspective, we are just 2 out of over 50 cases HMRC has in the Court of Appeal at the moment:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/l...search=revenue

Does this possibly indicate that the relevant taxation legislation and guidance notes provided by HMRC are drafted in such an unprofessional and imprecise manner that the ensuing misunderstandings and variety of interpretations necissitate court proceedings to clear up?

Is there anything to stop any of us from individually launcing any kind of legal proceedings whilst the MP case is on-going? Are there any avenues to dispute within the HMRC's own disputes/tribunals processes?

[seadog]

HMRC complaints procedure

Does this possibly indicate that the relevant taxation legislation and guidance notes provided by HMRC are drafted in such an unprofessional and imprecise manner that the ensuing misunderstandings and variety of interpretations necissitate court proceedings to clear up?

Is there anything to stop any of us from individually launcing any kind of legal proceedings whilst the MP case is on-going? Are there any avenues to dispute within the HMRC's own disputes/tribunals processes?

We are all entitled to intitiate a formal complaint against HMRC's conduct in waiting 8 years to "claify this legislation when they knew about it in 2002 (Technical note 63) but to do this it would need to be done using professional advisers which will come rather costly.

It might be something MontP could launch as a class action complaint to put some pressure on HMRC. It might also uncover some more damaging internal documents about why they took so long to come up with BN66.

[portseven]

do MP's have twitter accounts? wonder if any of our friends do...

[Squicker]

(A big thanks to the person who tipped me off about this.)

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/l...se_id=20100360

Right before the election.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Timescales

Right before the election.

Our solicitor is hoping to get a decision on the written application within the next 6 weeks.

If the written application is accepted
then there's a chance we could get a full hearing before the end of the year

If the written application is refused
(which is quite normal) then we would have to present at an oral hearing which would delay proceedings by another few months. In this case, I can't see us getting into court for a full hearing until Spring 2011.

Beyond the Court of Appeal
Whoever wins in the Court of Appeal, it will be appealed to the Supreme Court and/or ECtHR/ECJ. This could take another 3 years or more.

Personally, I don't see there being a resolution until at least 2014.

[Retro]

Speeding up the process

Our solicitor is hoping to get a decision on the written application within the next 6 weeks.

If the written application is accepted
then there's a chance we could get a full hearing before the end of the year

If the written application is refused
(which is quite normal) then we would have to present at an oral hearing which would delay proceedings by another few months. In this case, I can't see us getting into court for a full hearing until Spring 2011.

Beyond the Court of Appeal
Whoever wins in the Court of Appeal, it will be appealed to the Supreme Court and/or ECtHR/ECJ. This could take another 3 years or more.

Personally, I don't see there being a resolution until at least 2014.

Thanks DR.

I know that we still need to be granted access to the Court of Appeal but let's assume that we get this.

Then, if both sides can indicate in advance that they will appeal the Court of Appeal decision if it goes against them, can't we save everybody's time and cost by moving directly to the Supreme Court/ECtHR/ECJ?

[Cantthinkof1]

Timescales....

Our solicitor is hoping to get a decision on the written application within the next 6 weeks.

If the written application is accepted
then there's a chance we could get a full hearing before the end of the year

If the written application is refused
(which is quite normal) then we would have to present at an oral hearing which would delay proceedings by another few months. In this case, I can't see us getting into court for a full hearing until Spring 2011.

Beyond the Court of Appeal
Whoever wins in the Court of Appeal, it will be appealed to the Supreme Court and/or ECtHR/ECJ. This could take another 3 years or more.

Personally, I don't see there being a resolution until at least 2014.

Once again DR,

Many Thanks for all your valueable input.
When you were 'off the scene' for a few days it did feel like being on board ship but without the Captain!
I do post now and again but not often, however I do read all the posts over and over, and on the site 4/5 times a day!

Re your prediction of no resolution until at least 2014, does that mean 'our friends' cannot legally start any court action against any of us on an individual level? - Do they have to wait until all the actions in the European court are finished?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I know that we still need to be granted access to the Court of Appeal but let's assume that we get this.

Then, if both sides can indicate in advance that they will appeal the Court of Appeal decision if it goes against them, can't we save everybody's time and cost by moving directly to the Supreme Court/ECtHR/ECJ?

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that.

The only way we can bypass the Court of Appeal is if they refuse our application at the written and oral stages. Then we would have to appeal to the Supreme Court. If they also refused a hearing, then we could go to Europe.

Whichever permutation you look at, I reckon it will take at least 3 years to reach the end of the process. Personally, I am working on the basis of 5 years.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Re your prediction of no resolution until at least 2014, does that mean 'our friends' cannot legally start any court action against any of us on an individual level? - Do they have to wait until all the actions in the European court are finished?

We have all appealed our Closure Notices, and there is a process HMRC would have to follow to discharge those appeals. (Note that these appeals have no formal connection with the court cases.)

They would have to take one or more cases to a Tax Tribunal (formerly called the Special Commissioners). This would be a pretty pointless exercise when the legislation is being challenged in the higher courts.

I'm not saying they won't try some dirty tactics to "encourage" people to pay up but I think it's unlikely.

Montpelier have already said they would vigourously any attempt by HMRC to enforce collection before the appeals process has run it's course. I am assuming PwC, Steed/KMPG, deGraaf and others would do likewise.

[Cantthinkof1]

Many Thanks

We have all appealed our Closure Notices, and there is a process HMRC would have to follow to discharge those appeals. (Note that these appeals have no formal connection with the court cases.)

They would have to take one or more cases to a Tax Tribunal (formerly called the Special Commissioners). This would be a pretty pointless exercise when the legislation is being challenged in the higher courts.

I'm not saying they won't try some dirty tactics to "encourage" people to pay up but I think it's unlikely.

Montpelier have already said they would vigourously any attempt by HMRC to enforce collection before the appeals process has run it's course. I am assuming PwC, Steed/KMPG, deGraaf and others would do likewise.

Many Thanks DR for that info...