BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[smalldog]

I think its probably fair to assume that HMRC wont be writing off anything to do with our debt until at least the COA has taken place. Its so close not much point in them doing anything at the moment. However it will be interesting to see what happens if we either win or its a marginal loss, they could very well then consider us as candidates for not spending anymore cash on a case that could drag on years.

As DR says, cant speculate, interesting times that for sure. On the one hand HMG is saying it needs every penny in tax, and in the next breath they are writing off tax owed.

[TheBarCapBoyz]

Danny Alexander, new Treasury chief, avoided capital gains tax on house - Telegraph

In reply to sjw who is new to the forum, at least as a poster.

One of the things we have spent years discussing and I think we are all agreed on is that we are the little people, and the political establishment, who are the big people, are therefore exempted from the normal rules of society. aka hypocrisy rules ok.

Witness Diane Abbott's recent rant about "it's ok to send my son to Private School becuase I'm West Indian and we look after our children". In other words, I'm a big person, and you're the f'ucking little people. Come to think of it, Diane ain't a little person is she? hehe

Now the Lib Dems, high on the aroma of power for the first time in decades, of course will be even more "them and us" than normal Governments. And I think everyone who understands how these people behave in local government will substantiate this view. There are some decent Lib Dems (Vince Cable aint one of them): I thought David Laws might have been above this, and he may well have been. Sadly following his resignation, the current Lib Dem pigmy incumbent is reverting to type with his disgraceful attack on "tax avoidance" this week.

The classic example of power going to your head is the despicable David Gauke who is now completely contradicting what he said in opposition. Because in opposition he represented the little people; now he's a big person; a treasury minister with a chauffuer and all the trappings.

We on the BN66 forum have become used to the lies, cheating, spin and hypocrisy of the powers that be.

Welcome to the new Government. Same as the old Government.

And to you... welcome aboard my friend.

[SantaClaus]

There are 3 judges - see link to court listing in 1st post. The judgment could be unanimous (3-0) or a majority (2-1) but the wording of the judgment is equally important.

I really don't think there is any point in us speculating what might happen since there are simply too many variables.

Apart from anything else, there's also PwC's completely separate argument being heard at the same time, which could get referred to the ECJ.

As for HMRC trying to enforce collection, Montp are prepared for this.

I think a lot of it will depend on which judge we get.

If the COA judges have worked for HMRC, like our friend Parker, then expect a verdict based on a wooly argument.

Hoping that we get more impartial judges this time who are not swayed by a nod, wink and masonic handshake.

[swede]

Dumb question.

I think a lot of it will depend on which judge we get.

If the COA judges have worked for HMRC, like our friend Parker, then expect a verdict based on a wooly argument.

Hoping that we get more impartial judges this time who are not swayed by a nod, wink and masonic handshake.

At this level, are judges picked based on their specific areas of expertise, or is there a pool of judges, any of whom might be chosen?

If it's the former, then is there any way of finding out who might potentially be chosen for our case? - you know, just so that I can use statistics to help allay my fears of us being stitched up with 3 Judge P's....

[DonkeyRhubarb]

At this level, are judges picked based on their specific areas of expertise, or is there a pool of judges, any of whom might be chosen?

If it's the former, then is there any way of finding out who might potentially be chosen for our case? - you know, just so that I can use statistics to help allay my fears of us being stitched up with 3 Judge P's....

The judges assigned to our case are listed here:

Case Tracker for Civil Appeals

LORD JUSTICE MUMMERY
LADY JUSTICE SMITH
LORD JUSTICE TOMLINSON

You can find short biogs on all the CoA judges here:

Info about - Court of Appeal Civil division - the court of appeal

EDIT

Mummery is the most senior, followed by Smith, then Tomlinson who was promoted to the CoA this year.

[SantaClaus]

The judges assigned to our case are listed here:

Case Tracker for Civil Appeals

LORD JUSTICE MUMMERY
LADY JUSTICE SMITH
LORD JUSTICE TOMLINSON

You can find short biogs on all the CoA judges here:

Info about - Court of Appeal Civil division - the court of appeal

EDIT

Mummery is the most senior, followed by Smith, then Tomlinson who was promoted to the CoA this year.

Thanks for the info DR.

Paranoid hat on...

The one that rings alarm bells with me is:

Lord Justice Mummery
Junior Counsel to the Treasury (Chancery) 1981-89

Being the most senior judge, I wonder if he could get the other judges to pull rank and file.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I was doing a bit of background digging on Lord Justice Mummery and I came across the following case.

Let's hope he similarly sticks to matters of law in our case.

Property developer outwits planners by building £500,000 home disguised as a barn | Mail Online

(1) High Court judge Mr Justice Andrew Collins branded the scheme a fraud in April last year and gave Welwyn Hatfield Council the chance to decide whether or not it wanted to evict the pair.

(2) But a panel of three appeal judges ruled that the couple were within the law and had achieved immunity for the use of the building as a dwelling.

[OnYourBikeGB]

I was doing a bit of background digging on Lord Justice Mummery and I came across the following case.

Let's hope he similarly sticks to matters of law in our case.

Property developer outwits planners by building £500,000 home disguised as a barn | Mail Online

(1) High Court judge Mr Justice Andrew Collins branded the scheme a fraud in April last year and gave Welwyn Hatfield Council the chance to decide whether or not it wanted to evict the pair.

(2) But a panel of three appeal judges ruled that the couple were within the law and had achieved immunity for the use of the building as a dwelling.

Interesting. Nice to see that they don't all make up new rules when things get politically awkward.

[centurian]

Let's hope he similarly sticks to matters of law in our case.

Not exactly a glowing remark from Mummery though

"'It is a surprising outcome which decent lawabiding citizens will find incomprehensible: a public authority, deceived into granting planning permission by a dishonest planning application, can be required by law to issue an official certificate to the culprit consolidating the fruits of the fraud.'"

Looks like he was trying to find a way to go in the favour of the council, but couldn't find a legal basis for it.

[BolshieBastard]

This is obscene and against 'natural' justice.

Its also the reason we are screwed imo.

It seems HMRC can now act on illegally obtained information. Now, if the police obtain a gun by illegal means that is linked to a criminal, Im pretty certain that evidence ie the gun, would be ruled as inadmissable because the police didnt have a search warrant or obtained the evidence illegally.

OK these cases arent the same as ours but it shows hMRC are being given a free rein which even the police wouldnt be allowed.

BBC News - HMRC letters target taxpayers with Swiss bank accounts

Hundreds of wealthy UK taxpayers have been sent letters by HM Revenue & Customs over possible large-scale tax evasion, (its not likely to be evasion. Its avoidance and legal!) the BBC has learned.

It is understood HMRC has acquired a list of high net-worth individuals with accounts at the Swiss division of HSBC.

The list was stolen by an employee and passed to the taxman by the French authorities. The bank is not accused of any wrongdoing.

The campaign comes after the government announced a crackdown on tax avoidance.

Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander told the Liberal Democrat conference in Liverpool it was hoped closing loopholes and ensuring wealthy people pay the full top rate of tax would generate an estimated £7bn a year by 2015 in additional income tax revenue.

Secrecy laws

Tax evasion and avoidance cost the Treasury an estimated £14bn a year and successive governments have vowed to take action against it.

BBC business correspondent Joe Lynam says the letters sent out by the HMRC are known as Code of Practice 9 and advise the recipients that they are suspected of committing illegal tax evasion which may lead to a criminal conviction.



A HMRC spokesman said: "The days of hiding money offshore to evade tax are now over."

Due to its secrecy laws, Switzerland has long attracted the very wealthy as a place to save their money.

This is changing in light of a worldwide clampdown on "offshore" tax havens ordered by the G20 last year.

It also follows similar efforts by Germany in 2008 against wealthy residents suspected of using banks in neighbouring Liechtenstein, another tax haven.

Germany's finance ministry paid an informant a reported 5 million euros (£4.2m) for a stolen computer disc containing the names of hundreds of clients at a wealth management firm.

In the HMRC case, a former staff member at HSBC's Swiss division stole highly sensitive data belonging to 15,000 high net-worth account holders earlier this year and fled to France.

The list was passed to the French authorities, who in turn handed the relevant details to HMRC.

HSBC fired the employee and the Swiss authorities are pursuing criminal action against him but cannot extradite him from France for legal reasons.

No more than 10% of the list of suspected tax evaders pertained to any one country.

HSBC said it had no comment to make on the matter.

HMRC hasn't been able to stay out of the headlines of late. September started with the embarrassing revelation it had miscalculated the tax affairs of nearly six million people, 1.4m of whom would face additional tax.

Now a week after its political boss, Treasury secretary Danny Alexander, said there would be a clampdown on evasion, hundreds of "high net worth" individuals have been sent the kind of letter which could see some of them end up in jail.

This may prove to be a rich seam of income for the taxman as no-one is likely - in public at any rate - to support people who have broken the law in an attempt to minimise their tax bill.

But it may encourage some of the super-rich to take their entire tax affairs offshore, denying the UK billions in revenue at a time when it is needed most.