BN66 - the road to Judicial Review

[malvolio]

Please keep them coming.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/repealofIR35

Hmmm...

Might I suggst people look at the other petitions active at the moment and ask themselves, "Why would anyone take any notice of anyone who thinks any of these to be a good idea; even the literate ones"...

This one really is a waste of time. NL won't repeal it, full stop. I rather doubt the Tories, if they get in, will repeal any taxation measures since they will simultaneoulsy be cutting a swathe through public expenditure and the two are not compatible.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Hmmm...

Might I suggst people look at the other petitions active at the moment and ask themselves, "Why would anyone take any notice of anyone who thinks any of these to be a good idea; even the literate ones"...

This one really is a waste of time. NL won't repeal it, full stop. I rather doubt the Tories, if they get in, will repeal any taxation measures since they will simultaneoulsy be cutting a swathe through public expenditure and the two are not compatible.

There are several hundred thousand freelancers in this country affected by IR35. If everyone signed the petition then someone might take a bit of notice.

Everything (including the early day motion) is a long shot. But if you don't try then you can be sure nothing will change. We in the BN66 camp no this all too well.

The way I look at it is "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

[poppy01]

Hmmm...

Might I suggst people look at the other petitions active at the moment and ask themselves, "Why would anyone take any notice of anyone who thinks any of these to be a good idea; even the literate ones"...

This one really is a waste of time. NL won't repeal it, full stop. I rather doubt the Tories, if they get in, will repeal any taxation measures since they will simultaneoulsy be cutting a swathe through public expenditure and the two are not compatible.

having spoken, the doomsayer departs

[silver_lining]

Hmmm...

Might I suggst people look at the other petitions active at the moment and ask themselves, "Why would anyone take any notice of anyone who thinks any of these to be a good idea; even the literate ones"...

This one really is a waste of time. NL won't repeal it, full stop. I rather doubt the Tories, if they get in, will repeal any taxation measures since they will simultaneoulsy be cutting a swathe through public expenditure and the two are not compatible.

I have to say I stongly disagree, for a number of reasons.

As we all know IR35 is targetting leglistation and hence Joe Public not really affected and probably not interested. From what I have read from other sources, the income from IR35 is not stacking up. I am concious this is a complex matter that has potential to be spun one way or another. Its complex to quantify how many contractors are now paying extra NI versus those taking advantage of tax planning schemes..... but to mention a few.

None the less I am reasonably confident its slim pickings if any.

My belief is that IT contracting community would vote on this basis. I also believe if this avenue, along with others, is used to demonstrate to the Tories that this is a tangible vote they can collect, they will do it. They would be foolish to ignore regardless of their current standing.

This should for one part of a larger pitch to the tories to endear themselves to the community.

All that aside, as DR said nothing ventured nothing gained.

[malvolio]

And I have to say there is already a lot of work going into sorting the IR35 conundrum and has been for a while now. If anything gets it removed, it will be by negotiation and debate, not outright demands for its removal.

And all I was saying was that the Petition website is an NL beast, they don't take any notice of it and nor will anyone else. Take a look at the top 10 by signatory (and ignore the 65k asking that Gay Gordon resigns): all worthy causes but how many of them have had any effect?

It might not be nice, but it's reality. Some people need to learn to live with it.

[centurian]

the Tories, if they get in, will repeal any taxation measures since they will simultaneoulsy be cutting a swathe through public expenditure and the two are not compatible.

If it can be successfully argued that policing IR35 costs more than it brings in, then there is a justification for abolishing it under the grounds of cost savings.

For instance, I can see them abolishing tax credits and then simply raising tax thresholds to compensate - what's the point in taxing low income earners and then giving the money back to them in benefits - just don't tax them in the first place.


However, on the IR35 argument, the recent figures do not take into account the indirect effect - those that just go umbrella to begin with, or go permie. Haven't the tories stated that they won't simply abolish IR35 because of "unintended consequences" and their aim is to reform it.

On the BN66 side, I suspect that all the effort being expended on the retrospective side means that the government won't actually gain anything from a financial point of view - they're doing it for punitive (punishment) purposes.

[malvolio]

If it can be successfully argued that policing IR35 costs more than it brings in, then there is a justification for abolishing it under the grounds of cost savings.

For instance, I can see them abolishing tax credits and then simply raising tax thresholds to compensate - what's the point in taxing low income earners and then giving the money back to them in benefits - just don't tax them in the first place.


However, on the IR35 argument, the recent figures do not take into account the indirect effect - those that just go umbrella to begin with, or go permie. Haven't the tories stated that they won't simply abolish IR35 because of "unintended consequences" and their aim is to reform it.

On the BN66 side, I suspect that all the effort being expended on the retrospective side means that the government won't actually gain anything from a financial point of view - they're doing it for punitive (punishment) purposes.

Agreed, the only way to kill IR35 is to prove it doesn't earn anything or, ideally, it loses money. That might be tricky since nobody keeps track of the income from specific measures (and why not?), but we're trying. I still think we'll have other things to worry about come next year though.

I also think it a bit worrying that MPs of all parties still equate incorporation with tax avoidance. That is the harder battle to win.

BN66 is different. Anything that aims to changes the rules going backwards is a step to far and any administration that tries to do so has lost the right to govern. However NL have proved time and time again that they will continue a course of action even when it's clearly wrong rather than admit a mistake. The only things they ever do U-turns on are policy announcements that never happen anyway.

Cunch of bunts. the sooner we're rid of them the better.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

On the BN66 side, I suspect that all the effort being expended on the retrospective side means that the government won't actually gain anything from a financial point of view - they're doing it for punitive (punishment) purposes.

And, hopefully, this is where the buggers will come unstuck.

They would have stood a better chance of testing retrospection if they'd targeted the likes of the banks or a bunch of fat cats

[seadog]

Agreed, the only way to kill IR35 is to prove it doesn't earn anything or, ideally, it loses money. That might be tricky since nobody keeps track of the income from specific measures (and why not?), but we're trying. I still think we'll have other things to worry about come next year though.

I also think it a bit worrying that MPs of all parties still equate incorporation with tax avoidance. That is the harder battle to win.

BN66 is different. Anything that aims to changes the rules going backwards is a step to far and any administration that tries to do so has lost the right to govern. However NL have proved time and time again that they will continue a course of action even when it's clearly wrong rather than admit a mistake. The only things they ever do U-turns on are policy announcements that never happen anyway.

Cunch of bunts. the sooner we're rid of them the better.

As one of the few property developers on the forum IR35 does not affect me but can I suggest rather thaan trying to just get it repealed you argue for an alternative tax regime whcih takes account of your special circumstances which makes you different from permies.

Iy you agreed to a rate say 25% that would show some cooperation and recognise the point whcih HMRC are trying to make.

Change rather than repeal would seem like a much more achievable objective.

Just a thought

PS have also signed the petiton

[seadog]

Hi all. Been lurking but working in the background. I sent the "letter" to my MP Willie Rennie (Lib Dem) with a few changes outlining my situation and received a great response.

In the letter he agrees the change to the legislation is unfair. He goes on to say he has written to the Treasury but expects to be fobbed off with the standard response so has also written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a copy of my letter (less personal details). He has raised his own concerns and included our questions and asked for a direct response that is more substantive and satisfactory in comparison to the standard letters we have all been getting.

Now I just have to wait to see if Mr Darling responds.

Will you do a PM to Donkey Rhubarb and send him a copy of your letter and the MP's response.

It can help to provide a schedule of friendly MP's