BN66 - the road to Judicial Review

[ASB]

On the IR35 front http://www.pcg.org.uk/cms/index.php?...ws&Itemid=1053

I liked the lines...
"PCG suspect that Miss Ussher gave the answer she did because the full truth would expose IR35 to further ridicule"

and...
"[IR35] is frequently misapplied and if you are paying, we could well surmise from this Parliamentary answer, that you could be in a minority."

I must admit to being somewhat surprised on 2 levels.

- The question was posed by a Labour MP. Generally these questions are vetted by the whips before submission (whether written or oral). Looks like a bit of an ambush

- Only about 150 people would appear to be be making deemed payments. The original RIA estimated that most of the estimated 66,000 business affected would closed and that revenue would be (I think) 900 mln.

But, in the interest of balance there is a lot we don't know. There may be a huge number gone permie since IR35. Both because of it and because of the generally harsher client.

Also, there is no knowledge (or really way of knowing) how many simply pay up. i.e. have revised their operating model to pay themselves a salary of such magnitude that a deemed payment is not required (in which case the answers to the P35 question become No anyway).

Quite a few people I suspect have also moved into other tax planning arenas since IR35 (certainly a reasonable number on this thread have commented it this effect).

However, it certainly appear that IR35 is the failure pretty much all said it would be. Even if it was administered for the 50k pa (yep) as mentioned in the RIA it would be poor. Given the likely real costs of it it is certainly on the face of it ineffective as a revenue earner, at least directly.

[wildebeest]

IR35 petition

Signed......

I'm currently working with a large bunch of contractors, 99% of whom are operating 'outside' of IR35 using a range of 'solutions'. I'm sure they would all love to rush to add their signatures to the petition but I do have some difficulty persuading them (and that includes getting them behind the whole retro debate) that their names are not immediately flagged up in the Treasury/Revenue avoidance database. Anyone seeing the same from colleagues....?

[malvolio]

The MP was asking a uestion on behalf of a constituent and was acting (amazingly enough) as a good MP should. USsher's answer is frankly astonishing. However, some intersting numbers...

IR35 is directly earning around £1.3m a year, according to HMRC.

I've done a fag packet estimate of how many people are paying tax/NICs as a result of not trying to stay out of IR35 by extrapolating from the number of umbrella users and taking some generous estimates on how many are assuming they are IR35 caught. The absolute best I can come up with is around £450m a year more than if they had all declared themselves outside IR35.

HMRC estimated they would be taking £220m a year in additional NICs alone as a result of IR35 (written answer in Hansard, 2001)

The total take from IR35-related taxation is about one thousandth of a percent of UK's BDP.

UK's freelance commnity is estimated to earn around £2.5bn for UK PLC

[DonkeyRhubarb]

More publicity

and very well written

http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/UK...xxxx38053.html

[BrilloPad]

and very well written

http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/UK...xxxx38053.html

I dont like it. They did not mention your name!

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I dont like it. They did not mention your name!

What are you doing on here? Shouldn't you be out enjoying your last night of freedom?

[BrilloPad]

What are you doing on here? Shouldn't you be out enjoying your last night of freedom?

You missed the stag do : it was 4 weeks ago! Boycie (who was also one of the barcapboyz) was there and had a great time.......

[Slobbo]

Response from my MP

Hi all. Been lurking but working in the background. I sent the "letter" to my MP Willie Rennie (Lib Dem) with a few changes outlining my situation and received a great response.

In the letter he agrees the change to the legislation is unfair. He goes on to say he has written to the Treasury but expects to be fobbed off with the standard response so has also written to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a copy of my letter (less personal details). He has raised his own concerns and included our questions and asked for a direct response that is more substantive and satisfactory in comparison to the standard letters we have all been getting.

Now I just have to wait to see if Mr Darling responds.

[A-Nony-Mouse]

Signed......

I'm currently working with a large bunch of contractors, 99% of whom are operating 'outside' of IR35 using a range of 'solutions'. I'm sure they would all love to rush to add their signatures to the petition but I do have some difficulty persuading them (and that includes getting them behind the whole retro debate) that their names are not immediately flagged up in the Treasury/Revenue avoidance database. Anyone seeing the same from colleagues....?

I still have that problem myself but for a different reason - I've yet to get anything in the post from HMRC in the form of closure notices (I've had my 'we have opened an investigation letters years ago of course), and I don't want to give them any opportunity to collate disparate data sources and find out they have missed me...

Yes, I know I'm being paranoid and that it requires competence to collate disparate data sources, but while most companies (and I'm sure government departments) are filled with incompetent people, there are always a few that have a clue.

I don't want to give anybody with a single clue a second clue.... Who knows what they might do with it! (candlestick in the kitchen - was it really the butler? It's more likely to have been the visiting MP...)

That said, if I wasn't already under the threat of investigation I would sign both petitions - a clue by itself is not a clue at all if you aren't on the list of people they are investigating and therefore cannot be collated in the same way!

[DonkeyRhubarb]

48 signatures so far

Please keep them coming.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/repealofIR35