Temping and national insurance, being self-employed?

[Lumiere]

What "recent IR35 developments" ?

[bingocaller88]

What "recent IR35 developments" ?

Dragonfly, and "right of substitution"

On all of my contracts, there's no way that the client would have accepted me sending someone else to work instead of me.

[PhilAtBFCA]

bingocaller88

Thanks for your posts, but I think you may have missed some information:-

1. the agency cannot have you as a self employed person, ( Ch 7 ITEPA 2003 ) it seems you misunderstood that from the outset as you ended up PAYE with the agency.
2. rates will never be inclusive of vat in practice, its just not done for loads of reasons, prices for commercial contracts are +vat
3. a ltd co does not have to register for vat, so even if you did have a vat included rate you could have been a ltd co, and benefited, if you wanted to run your own business
4. recent ir35 developments havent changed much of anything, ir35 has been "developing" for 10 years. your status is dependent mostly on a case that was decided in 1968, since then there have been other cases but they all rely on that original decision.
5 dragonfly case didnt change a thing, susbstitution is just one factor that takes you outside ir35, there are several others to consider, sounds like the agency were talking to you about your contract and ir35, if so they are on very dodgy ground and should know better.
6. temps paid paye are employees for tax purposes and workers for employment legislation, and thats still the same basically, new legislation is on the way to change that in 2010.
7. you went paye and now youre wondering about expenses ? well there are some things you may be able to claim on your tax return at a year end it depends on your situation. If the agency is not paying expenses for the two clients sites, i think you will find that you cant claim anything.


In conclusion it seems quite likely that your assignment is one of employment and inside ir35, and that you do not really consider yourself in business at all. A temp position being paid paye by the agency with no expenses seems a very good solution.

I posted this really as I thought your situation is a great story about the difference between a "Professional Contractor and Freelancer" and a "Temporary worker/employee" - what you appeared to be offerred is a temp position and has nothing to do with being a Professional Contractor and Freelancer.

My guess is that your agency started talkking about contracting as a way of getting you interested in more potential £ at no cost to the agency. Bad news indeed for the agency.

That distinction is not one about the type of work or anything like that, its a distinction based on what the client is really looking for ( in this case an employee to do a job ) and what the worker wants ( in this case a job with as much £ as possible )

Agencies ( IMHO ) should be careful about confusing workers with talk about self employed/Limited companies/Umbrellas and all that sort of stuff when a PAYE temporary worker position fits the bill perfectly for all parties - Thats why we have legislation like the MSC regs, which means that agencies cannot introduce complex accounting arrangements for workers that just want a job, and a pay slip. ( It is a highly risky situation for them )

Hmm, just read this and it seems like a bit of a rant, but I think Professional Contractors and Freelancers get enough bad press and interest from the HMRC for things that are caused by other parties self interest, such as agencies who should really know better.

Phil