should socialists go PAYE?

[deckster]

Let me put this in perspective with a few figures:

[snip]

I.e. even with his wife not working (and I suggest that if one expects to be supported not working, one is acting rich), 2 years saving will get a house at a reasonable price.

Maybe I'm working to a different definition of 'rich' to you guys. To me, 'rich' is not scraping by to afford a 2-bed bungalow in Crewe.

[d000hg]

40k+ is rich now is it? I must tell my brother-in-law, who earns about 45k as a deputy head of a large school near Crewe. Now they're rich my sister can stop working nights at Asda just to make sure the mortgage gets paid.

In my demographic (mid twenties), I can only think of a handful of couples who have a combined gross income of £45k+. We could live off my wife's salary as a teacher of ~£25k if we had to, and I know people renting quite nice 3-bedroom houses with a combined income more like £20K

You brother in law shouldn't have bought such an expensive house... £45k is getting on for twice the average salary. Do they go on holidays, have newish cars, a big TV, go out for dinner frequently... any of those suggest they just can't budget properly either.

[lambrini_socialist]

I keep hearing socialist/communist contractors saying how "the rich" (which is defined as "not me") should pay more taxes. (Yet they don't express a desire for lower paid workers to pay less.)

Well I'm all for people taking the initiative and giving a lead.

So shouldn't it be the case then that socialist/communist-minded contractors should declare themselves an employee, thus paying tax as PAYE and not a limited company. I'm tired of liberal-leftie contractors complaining about this country when they could be doing a bit more themselves to pay more tax. After all, they keep on demanding that other people pay more tax. I'm sure they wouldn't mind. However I don't know of any socialist/commie contractors who go PAYE voluntarily. Why would that be, hmm?

that would be, broadly speaking, me then (although i'm not actually a socialist, i'm certainly a leftie and i'm running a ltd).

it's pretty simple. contracting != employment. i'm running a business. the government want to tax me to bits because either they don't get it, or they're pretending not to get it. going PAYE with an umbrella is a *huge* rip off and simply isn't appropriate to what my business does.

and that's it in a nutshell.

besides which....much as i get a kick out of doing my patriotic duty and pitching in to fund the welfare state, the NHS, the army, the care of refugees etc, i don't think ukgovt are doing a great job of spending my money right now (iraq, bank bail-outs, ID cards etc) so i don't feel too bad about taking reasonable measures to optimise my tax affairs. plus, the property boom and the routine use of family homes as investment vehicles has priced my family out of the property market for now so i've got to save up the cash somehow.

i think when lefties talk about "the rich" paying more we don't mean IT monkeys earning £400/day and living in palatially appointed £100,000 swindon mansions, rather CEOs and higher-ups who have access to convoluted and unfair tax breaks (which i don't pretend to understand, but i'm sure we'd all agree they exist) which means they pay a lower proportion of their income + bonuses in tax than an average UK family with in income in the range of £20 - 30k.

there are of course some people of my political persuasion who'd call me a sell-out - but frankly, fck 'em.

[Old Greg]

Not sure I'd say I'm a socialist but I am a leftie and I think we should pay more tax. If it was down to me, I'd sort out the IR35 business like this:

Abolish employers' NI and increase salaries with the employers' savings.
Abolish all NI and stick it onto Income Tax.
So far, no-one's lost or gained - it's just clearer and we've got no more fibs about what NI is for - it's all tax.
Classify dividends in the same way as earned income and tax accordingly (I don't see why return on investment should be taxed less than getting off your @rse and going to work).

Anyway - it's not a policy document and I'm sure it needs some refinement to achieve the objective that there is no advantage to paying yourself dividends. What's more, traditional investors receiving dividends will see that lumped in with their other income and taxed accordingly (subject to normal taxes).

Yet despite all that, I pay myself minimum wage and dividends. The reason for this (or the way I justify it to myself/others, or the excuse I give - depending on how uncharitable you wish to be) is this. Left wing politics is fundamentally about a mass change in society, achieved through the collective efforts of workers not by the change in individual behaviours. This is rooted in the observation that the ordinary person has no power against the ruling class except when he combines with others in a mass movement. This is where there is the power to change things (BTW I think we're a long old way from that at the moment). People who say to lefties 'Why don't you give your money away' or 'Why don't you pay PAYE' mistake left-wing politics for bleeding-heart liberal tortured conscience, or Christianity (apologies to Christian lefties). I'm not having a go at people who do these things, but it won't change the world. So I feel no more open to criticism on this than anyone else who doesn't volunteer to pay more taxes than they have to.

Where I probably am open to criticism from real hard-line lefties is in my self-employment. I left a unionised work place to be self-employed (moving from a place where my future depends on our collective power, to one which I sort out for myself in an I'm alright Jack kind of way). This is fair enough in a way but they were going to TUPE me away from doing the kind of work I like, so anyone who doesn't like it can s*d off - and the very few hardliners I know are much too polite to say it to my face.

[contractor79]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

[Old Greg]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

Your original question contained an interesting dilemma even if it was expressed in a rather provocative and infantile way - 'commie'? Do you live in Dr Strangelove? Several posters have done you the courtesy of giving you a measured response. Not to convert you, I suspect, but to engage in a debate. Why don't you do the same - we might all learn something. And please have a look at wikipedia. You will find that liberalism and communism are quite far removed.

[contractor79]

Your original question contained an interesting dilemma even if it was expressed in a rather provocative and infantile way - 'commie'? Do you live in Dr Strangelove? Several posters have done you the courtesy of giving you a measured response. Not to convert you, I suspect, but to engage in a debate. Why don't you do the same - we might all learn something. And please have a look at wikipedia. You will find that liberalism and communism are quite far removed.

nah, it's all godless big state high taxes thought control stuff

[lambrini_socialist]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

i think that's a very fair response to Greg's post.

but seriously, Communists? are they interfering with your bodily fluids, perhaps?

[expat]

if you're a liberal-leftie commie and preach higher taxes and how wonderful it is to pay more into the government, then lead by example please and quit the hypocrisy

How about if you preach that the government should impose higher taxes? Then you would expect to pay them if and when the government imposes them, not before.

[Old Greg]

i think that's a very fair response to Greg's post.

but seriously, Communists? are they interfering with your bodily fluids, perhaps?

A case for viagra? I see what you're saying.