Online filing - IR incentives

[Bradley]

Re:Chargeable Time

to date, our time and admin costs on registrations is averaging £70 per client due to IR @#%$-ups, papers lost in the post etc.

I assume that you're talking about sending out the FBI2 form to clients for signature? The form would take say 15 minutes to complete and cost 30p to send.

With a chargeout rate of say £25 per hour for admin staff thats £6.25 plus VAT plus 30p in total.

The registration process as an agent is a one-off step with clients added to your list as the FBI2s are submitted to the Revenue.

Now if there are any delays as a result of Revenue error you can of course submit a compensation claim to the Revenue for the extra work they have caused you and you have charged the client. So the net cost to the client of Revenue errors should be nil. Before you say it this is normal practice and the Revenue do not mark your card in any way for pursuing this compensation.

Finally, any competent payroll software package should let you submit P35s electronically anyway so there isn't any additional cost to pass on to clients.

If your sofware doesn't allow you to submit electronically then you would let the admin staff complete the form online at a cost of say £25 plus VAT.

How then do you get to the figure of £70!!!

[fiddleabout]

Re: Included in our monthly fee for contractors

What Bradley has posted is exactly what I thought was the case from reading this up on the IR Website.

Register as agent to get an agent registration number. One off and shouldn't take very long at all.

Pass on a form to client to return to IR authorising agent to file for them (client can also do this online)

Set the payroll software to file online

As it looks like at least some accountants want to have their bite of the £825 giveaway I have made a start on a guide showing how contractors can do this themselves and avoid what appears to me to be an unjustifiable charge. Way off complete at the moment as I will add to it as I negotiate through the process myself. My first impression is that anybody who is halfway computer literate should be able to do this lot in a total of well less than an hour (but the elapsed time will be longer as you have to wait for authorisation codes to be posted to you by the IR. Annoyingly you will be forced to enter manually what the accountant could do automatically.

HitchHiker's Guide to online filing (incomplete at the mo')

[Buckstewerbuck]

Re: Included in our monthly fee for contractors

hi wellwoodhoyle,

what accountancy firm do you represent?

i know i only had to sign and date a online form for K&B.

[Darren at 1st Accountancy Serv Ltd]

PAYE

Looks like this topic is getting a little hot and controversial!

Just for info Rhino, at present we provide our clients with a simple spreadsheet to assist in their book keeping, which they tend to send through on a regular (monthly/quarterly) basis so that we can check to make sure they're on the correct track with any errors being corrected early on. All details are then double chacked at the year end when we receive all books, records, invoices & statements. We're currently working on an easier method of collecting this info by allowing clients to log in & fill in their transactions online but it's going to be a couple of months before this goes live.....there seems to be a lot of work involved in bringing such a system on board, together with the revamp of the old style website....thought had better clear that one up!

Just been speaking to another local firm up here, they also charge...£100 + vat but clients have been made aware of how to register similar to Simon and with plenty of notice....it is voluntary and people aren't being forced to register through their accountants.

[Rhino]

Re: PAYE

Darren, from my limited experience of contractor accounting, the simpler the better. All I basically do each month is fill out a standard expenses sheet and post that off with any receipts, invoices and bank statements, together with any VAT or Revenue forms that may have arrived. The accountant does all the rest and I have the opportunity to casually double check their figures for VAT, etc.

IMO accountants that are charging for PAYE online are expecting many of their clients not to bother to do anything themselves - they will have better things to do and be relying on good service from their accountant. I have already asked Simon Dolan from SJD to justify his of £125 + VAT and look forward to his reply. Having gone through the process they are charging for I cannot see the slightest hint of justification for a charge of any sort. It would presumably be very difficult for an accountant to retract these charges, once planned, as the loss of potential earnings from it would be unbearable :rollin

There are a number of other issues that concern me regarding the way certain accountants operate. I look foward to exposing these now that the gauntlet has been thrown down, safe in the knowledge that I have very little to lose

[WellwoodHoyle]

I quite agree...

The costs of getting a FBI1 form signed and submitted "should" be negligible.

"good" payroll suppliers "should" be able to provide a working internet filing system.

But we live in the real world.

In one case alone, the original FBI1 was lost in the post on its way to the client. Then the replacement had to be sent "three" times by special delivery (at £4 per time postage) before the IR would acknowledge and process it, That is a lot more time and postage cost than it "should" take. Despite proof of delivery, the IR wouldn't accept they received it, nor explain why it wasn't processed!

In around a dozen cases, the ID/password numbers which were sent to the client following on-line registration were either lost in the post or didn't work. We ended up picking up the pieces to get them re-registered. Lots of time on the telephone to the IR helpdesk (one client at a time - they refused to deal with more than one client per phone call!).

We have registered dozens of clients for on line filing, both directly through the on line process and via the FBI1 form. In some cases, it worked well, very little time and effort, but for many cases, it was a real ****** and took up a lot of time. Surely you wouldn't suggest that we charged the innocent clients who were just unlucky?

As for compensation, we have several claims ongoing both with the Post Office and Inland Revenue for the wasted time and additional cost. Very little success so far - just a book of stamps from the post office and several dismissive letters from the IR claiming the problems aren't "serious" nor "recurring" for any individual client, so nothing due - they ignore the fact that the problems arose over dozens of clients. We're spending more time trying to claim compensation, than we spent in the first place.

As for payroll, as we have been using one of the most popular proprietory packages for several years, we are stuck with it, for better or worse, otherwise we have to re-input all the standing data for dozens of clients and their employees into a new system. As far as we know they are going to issue an internet filing system, but it's not here yet.

As I said originally, we aren't planning to charge, and hope to be able to submit by internet - therefore all our clients should benefit from the full incentive payments. I was just trying to balance the argument. My point was that whilst some people are saying the accountant should get nothing because they're doing little more, in fact the accountant "may" be incurring time and costs, and it is the client that is truly getting money for nothing.

[Bradley]

Re:Compensation

Re your comments Wellwood

Surely you wouldn't suggest that we charged the innocent clients who were just unlucky?

You have to charge the client to reclaim compensation from the Revenue, unless, of course, it was down to your inefficiency.

As for compensation, we have several claims ongoing both with the Post Office and Inland Revenue for the wasted time and additional cost. Very little success so far - just a book of stamps from the post office

Having tried to claim compensation from the Post Office/ParcelFarce before I know the compensation you get from them is actually limited to the postage paid. So getting a book fo stamps is actually quite generous. Unless you have a specific agreement with a courier get your insurance upgraded to cover these events.

and several dismissive letters from the IR claiming the problems aren't "serious" nor "recurring" for any individual client, so nothing due - they ignore the fact that the problems arose over dozens of clients.

Under the Revenue's Code of Practice the claims are made on an individual basis so there's no point quoting dozens of cases to them, that's not proper procedure and it'll get dismissed; after all, insurance companies do it all the time.

We're spending more time trying to claim compensation, than we spent in the first place.

The claim for comensation should, of course, include all your costs.

Bottom line is that it really shouldn't cost your clients any more even if the Revenue @#%$ it up.

[fiddleabout]

Re: Re:Compensation

This thread is becoming so funny. It seems like it was the ************ accountant who kept this charge a secret

Better take that one on the chin I guess.

Mind you 12 * £50+VAT + £100+VAT(optional)

is still one helluvalot less than 12 * £80+VAT + £125+VAT(optional)

[Buckstewerbuckreturns]

Re: Re:Compensation

not better than

£45incl VAT x 12

seeing as everyone is on VAT FRS...its even a bigger bargain.

am i missing something??

[fiddleabout]

Re: Re:Compensation

> i got banned...not quite sure for what?
Look you know why and I know why and I suspect anybody else with half a brain can work out why. It may well be that both myself and Rhino will follow.

What exactly do you offer for £45+VAT though - I may be interested unless you expect me to do any day-to-day book-keeping which really is a drag once you've got used to just shoving it all in the post.