How to handle client process Re "requesting" WFH/Time off (IR35 warning bells)

[LondonManc]

OP. Consider this....

1. Client gets contractor in.
2. Manager gets given contractor but doesnt really care that hes not a permie.
3. Contractor moans about system where manager knows where everyone is etc.
4. Manager thinks sod this I can't cope with the moaning.
5. Contractor gets canned.

While I agree to an extent, there is a difference between moaning and politely pointing out differences between contractors, permies and disguised permies.

[northernladuk]

OP. Consider this....

1. Client gets contractor in.
2. Manager gets given contractor but doesnt really care that hes not a permie.
3. Contractor moans about system where manager knows where everyone is etc.
4. Manager thinks sod this I can't cope with the moaning.
5. Contractor gets canned.

Coming from the king of moaning about his clients and agents.....

[Boomer]

OP. Consider this....

1. Client gets contractor in.
2. Manager gets given contractor but doesnt really care that hes not a permie.
3. Contractor moans about system where manager knows where everyone is etc.
4. Manager thinks sod this I can't cope with the moaning.
5. Contractor gets canned.

Obviously I've considered this, but the prospect of getting walloped by HMRC makes you wonder whether it's worth it right?

Why is this even a thing? Surely you can you can just tell the RM that you're not going to be in (for whatever reason) and then follow up with an email to say you're not going to be in the office between x and y as discussed. If they then want to approve it thats up to them?

I have also tried this - saying I'm not going to be here, sending said email - but I don't know if this going to come back with RM saying "Approved" on it as that surely shows 'control'? (regardless of the fact that I don't care what they say really)
Given that I sent out a calendar invite for my holiday in Jan - which was known about at the interview, I was not expecting the invite to be Approved, then Declined and then Approved again. I felt it unnecessary to decline it at all as that implied that RM was going to come along and say I couldn't go. At which point I was fully prepared to kick off saying that I would be going and actually saying goodbye to the job.

How big is this design agency? From what I've seen of small digital design setups they can be very IR35 unfriendly. With such a relaxed approach it could be difficult to differentiate yourself from the permies. Pretty easy in a formal office but a small fast moving setup could be a real problem with D&C and could easily look part and parcel quite quickly with their all hands to the pump/JFDI approaches. All the standups, huddles and the like they do as well, it's hard to extract yourself from the ones that are related to team building and general business ones.

Possible but I think you'd need your head screwing on. Oddly enough I would have thought booking holidays wouldn't be a problem due to the informal nature of some of these setups so if it is I'd be looking for other warning bells.

It's a multinational Design agency so pretty big and growing. Not sure how to differentiate myself - I don't plan to come in in a suit for example just so I'm wearing different clothes to everyone else! As for the standups, if you're running a scrum project then you'd attend those anyway else you wouldn't have any idea what you were doing. I spent the first 5 years of my life as a consultant with Logica basically doing the same thing and even then no one ever really knew if you're a contractor or not as you try to fit in, be friendly and get on with the job at hand. People don't have signs on their heads.

Can you explain what you mean by you think I need my head screwing on?! I've been a consultant for 5 years, an independent contractor for 6 years (so I'm not fresh off the bus) I've assessed the other aspects, run through the QDOS working practices spreadsheet and the CEST tool and pretty comfortable that everything else is "fine" in as much as the murky waters allow you to try and work it out.

thanks for everyones quite mixed insights to this

[northernladuk]

It's a multinational Design agency so pretty big and growing. Not sure how to differentiate myself - I don't plan to come in in a suit for example just so I'm wearing different clothes to everyone else! As for the standups, if you're running a scrum project then you'd attend those anyway else you wouldn't have any idea what you were doing. I spent the first 5 years of my life as a consultant with Logica basically doing the same thing and even then no one ever really knew if you're a contractor or not as you try to fit in, be friendly and get on with the job at hand. People don't have signs on their heads.

Can you explain what you mean by you think I need my head screwing on?! I've been a consultant for 5 years, an independent contractor for 6 years (so I'm not fresh off the bus) I've assessed the other aspects, run through the QDOS working practices spreadsheet and the CEST tool and pretty comfortable that everything else is "fine" in as much as the murky waters allow you to try and work it out.

And FWIW, if you know IR35, you've done your homework and you are satisfied on the whole you are outside I personally wouldn't be that worried about a permission based system to the point I'd put my gig at risk for it. If everything else is solid I'd just blame one over zealous permie should the worst happen. Just keep lots of other evidence where you can to offset it.

thanks for everyones quite mixed insights to this

Hmm, I think I meant keep your head screwed on throughout the whole gig. I'd guess in environments like that you need to be very aware of IR35 and your own working practices to keep yourself outside and not fall in to the trap. I'm a big believer that, although time spent at a client isn't an issue, many many people will just fall in to part and parcel. It's harder to keep your working practices outside over time when human nature is to do the opposite and get lax and in with the crowd. In modern young (guessing) business like digital setups that work hard to break down old work barriers it must be even harder to stay outside.

All that said, you say it's a large multinational which kinda blows my thoughts out of the water. I was thinking about an environment at small, very agile startup type thing.

And FWIW, if you know IR35 well, all the paperwork and working practices on the whole show outside I'd not put my gig at risk over a permission based leave system. You could always blame it on one over zealous employee and not a control issue. Just try and save as much extra evidence as you go along. Save mails from other client staff where you advise you'll not be in the office for x days and just lose the emails related to permission, or something like that.