Attending team builds / team leadership meetings

[Artois]

About six months ago I started as a PM at a finance services firm.

Central team of PMs and BAs, at least half are contractors. All farmed out to various projects.

This company has an inordinate amount of team builds, offsides and team build / planning sessions. Both permie and contractor staff are expected to attend these sessions. Sessions for the central projects team, not project specific. So far I have hiked in the country, been to an expensive dinner and drinks in the city, and have been asked to participate in team "leadership meetings" where management asked us PMs how the reporting lines of the team should be organised - i.e. BAs and where they should be placed.

I have attended most of these meetings as every single person did. The rationale is that "we do not view permanent or contract staff as being different". I have never experienced this elsewhere- I've never gone to team builds except if they were project related.

I have usually just bitten my tongue and gone along. But given all the IR35 debacles in the press, I am now getting concerned about the IR35 implications of these events.

Am I mad for agreeing to attend these things in the past? Would putting an end to it and refusing to attend more team builds help avoid any further IR35 consequences? I really do feel that I look like a "disguised employee" in the words of HMRC.

Thanks ..

[doconline]

About six months ago I started as a PM at a finance services firm.

Central team of PMs and BAs, at least half are contractors. All farmed out to various projects.

This company has an inordinate amount of team builds, offsides and team build / planning sessions. Both permie and contractor staff are expected to attend these sessions. Sessions for the central projects team, not project specific. So far I have hiked in the country, been to an expensive dinner and drinks in the city, and have been asked to participate in team "leadership meetings" where management asked us PMs how the reporting lines of the team should be organised - i.e. BAs and where they should be placed.

I have attended most of these meetings as every single person did. The rationale is that "we do not view permanent or contract staff as being different". I have never experienced this elsewhere- I've never gone to team builds except if they were project related.

I have usually just bitten my tongue and gone along. But given all the IR35 debacles in the press, I am now getting concerned about the IR35 implications of these events.

Am I mad for agreeing to attend these things in the past? Would putting an end to it and refusing to attend more team builds help avoid any further IR35 consequences? I really do feel that I look like a "disguised employee" in the words of HMRC.

Thanks ..

That would be a huge red flag for me. My current ClientCo has something similar every 3 months, going over results, where the business is going etc. I politely decline as this has nothing to do with me and explain to whoever needs to be told, that I feel this would be an IR35 flag, I am their to provide expertise as per my contract and how the client co business is performing is nothing to do with me.

[FrontEnder]

About six months ago I started as a PM at a finance services firm.

Central team of PMs and BAs, at least half are contractors. All farmed out to various projects.

This company has an inordinate amount of team builds, offsides and team build / planning sessions. Both permie and contractor staff are expected to attend these sessions. Sessions for the central projects team, not project specific. So far I have hiked in the country, been to an expensive dinner and drinks in the city, and have been asked to participate in team "leadership meetings" where management asked us PMs how the reporting lines of the team should be organised - i.e. BAs and where they should be placed.

I have attended most of these meetings as every single person did. The rationale is that "we do not view permanent or contract staff as being different". I have never experienced this elsewhere- I've never gone to team builds except if they were project related.

I have usually just bitten my tongue and gone along. But given all the IR35 debacles in the press, I am now getting concerned about the IR35 implications of these events.

Am I mad for agreeing to attend these things in the past? Would putting an end to it and refusing to attend more team builds help avoid any further IR35 consequences? I really do feel that I look like a "disguised employee" in the words of HMRC.

Thanks ..

If that's their attitude in general, then you're well inside regardless.

Although you could point out that you're not contract "staff". You're a supplier to them, not staff.

[VectraMan]

If that's their attitude in general, then you're well inside regardless.

Although you could point out that you're not contract "staff". You're a supplier to them, not staff.

And this is the problem. In a way you're being unprofessional in letting your personal tax situation interfere with your client's business; it is after all not their problem: they just see someone not doing what's required. Only thing is they probably should have been more up front about it from the outset so you knew you were taking an inside IR35 contract.

I did this one before when "all staff" were required to attend some training thing and I got all militant and said "I'm not staff". Of course all the other contractors went.

[FrontEnder]

And this is the problem. In a way you're being unprofessional in letting your personal tax situation interfere with your client's business; it is after all not their problem: they just see someone not doing what's required. Only thing is they probably should have been more up front about it from the outset so you knew you were taking an inside IR35 contract.

I did this one before when "all staff" were required to attend some training thing and I got all militant and said "I'm not staff". Of course all the other contractors went.

More fool them then.

I suppose it depends who is saying this. If it's from somewhere up high and it's a well established company stance, it's not a good place to be in. But it might just be some middle manager or PM saying it, in which case, it might be easier to deal with and "educate" them.

[radish2008]

Totally disagree with most of the replies here.

You're obviously a valued member of their team and they value your opinion. It doesn't make you an 'employee' at all to attend their functions or drink their drinks. Are you supposed to put your fingers in your ears if someone starts talking about a project not explicitly mentioned in your schedule ?

Can someone point me to some case law where people have been declared as inside IR35 and paid all back taxes based on the reasons given in these replies ?

[oscarose]

Totally disagree with most of the replies here.

+1

Sounds like a delusion of grandeur.

Get to the meetings and carry on invoicing.

[northernladuk]

Can someone point me to some case law where people have been declared as inside IR35 and paid all back taxes based on the reasons given in these replies ?

Not on this alone but it can look like part and parcel. The JLJ partial win by HMRC references part and parcel as a key point.

This alone might not be a problem but it's a big warning flag. Too much of this stuff and you are going to lose the part and parcel argument as did Mr Spencer.

[MrMarkyMark]

About six months ago I started as a PM at a finance services firm.

Central team of PMs and BAs, at least half are contractors. All farmed out to various projects.

This company has an inordinate amount of team builds, offsides and team build / planning sessions. Both permie and contractor staff are expected to attend these sessions. Sessions for the central projects team, not project specific. So far I have hiked in the country, been to an expensive dinner and drinks in the city, and have been asked to participate in team "leadership meetings" where management asked us PMs how the reporting lines of the team should be organised - i.e. BAs and where they should be placed.

I have attended most of these meetings as every single person did. The rationale is that "we do not view permanent or contract staff as being different". I have never experienced this elsewhere- I've never gone to team builds except if they were project related.

I have usually just bitten my tongue and gone along. But given all the IR35 debacles in the press, I am now getting concerned about the IR35 implications of these events.

Am I mad for agreeing to attend these things in the past? Would putting an end to it and refusing to attend more team builds help avoid any further IR35 consequences? I really do feel that I look like a "disguised employee" in the words of HMRC.

Thanks ..

Some of this could be considered iffy, the team building away days, for one, I'm guessing funded by Client Co?
Some of it could be considered consultancy in preparation for those (new) projects going into BAU.

Dealing with these sorts of issues is a careful balancing act.
However, even within an organisation not all contractors are treated the same, even by the same engagers / Client Co Management.

[SueEllen]

Totally disagree with most of the replies here.

You're obviously a valued member of their team and they value your opinion. It doesn't make you an 'employee' at all to attend their functions or drink their drinks. Are you supposed to put your fingers in your ears if someone starts talking about a project not explicitly mentioned in your schedule ?

If the OP really doesn't like this then he needs to talk to the other contractors and those of you who are clued up on IR35 need to work to ensure that you don't attend the parts of the meetings that aren't relevant to you. (Though if it is a 5 minute segment in the middle you will just get an apology before they talk about it. for those few minutes.)

However some of your work as a contractor is consultancy and that means improving the clients' processes. If you are on the ball you ensure your schedule has this written into it. Another part is seeing if you can pick up more work e.g. another project which those meetings help you in doing.

Can someone point me to some case law where people have been declared as inside IR35 and paid all back taxes based on the reasons given in these replies ?

This is the case NLUK is referring to linky