Travel and Subsistence - Ltd Co vs "Large Consultancies"

[BillHicksRIP]

Is there a doc somewhere that clearly states the proposed changes to tax relief on travel and subsistence payments being removed for limited companies but not for "large consultancies" such as KPMG etc? What about offshore consultancies who place contractors in the UK? Thanks.

[FarmerPalmer]

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...n_Document.pdf

[jamesbrown]

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...n_Document.pdf

Yes, here. "Clear" is arguable However, it's in the paragraph at the top of p.13.

An employment intermediary’s business must be substantially in the supply of labour
services. Employment businesses, umbrella companies and PSCs will be within the
definition. However, professional service firms that second staff to clients will not be
caught by the new rules, as their business is not substantially in the supply of labour.

[cojak]

And more information here: CUK Forum - The Future of Contracting

[meridian]

I still don't get how this means big consultancies though. Is the difference in how the staff are paid? (For example, staff of a big consultancy are usually exclusively employees, whereas other contractors are usually the business owners as well? It doesn't mention salary structure though, only the "supply of labour")

However, professional service firms that second staff to clients will not be caught by the new rules, as their business is not substantially in the supply of labour.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I still don't get how this means big consultancies though. Is the difference in how the staff are paid? (For example, staff of a big consultancy are usually exclusively employees, whereas other contractors are usually the business owners as well? It doesn't mention salary structure though, only the "supply of labour")

They're trying to differentiate between companies that second their staff out to work on clients' projects, such as the big accountancy firms who conduct audits, but whose main business is accountancy and recruitment agencies whose sole income is from the supply of staff.

[fidot]

They're trying to differentiate between companies that second their staff out to work on clients' projects, such as the big accountancy firms who conduct audits, but whose main business is accountancy and recruitment agencies whose sole income is from the supply of staff.

While that may be true of recruitment agencies, it certainly isn't true of our limited companies. We second our staff to work on clients' projects in exactly the same way as the large consultancies.

[Danglekt]

define "our staff"

You get into Employer NI, minimum wage, contract of employment etc. with that arguement, and I doubt most of can be considered employees or staff in that context.

Does seem hugely unfair though

[meridian]

Travel and Subsistence - Ltd Co vs "Large Consultancies"

They're trying to differentiate between companies that second their staff out to work on clients' projects, such as the big accountancy firms who conduct audits, but whose main business is accountancy and recruitment agencies whose sole income is from the supply of staff.

The "large consultancies" I'm thinking of are the likes of Accenture, IBM, etc. Their staff are sitting next to me, doing a roughly similar role.

In the last role I had, the Accenture bod was my mirror image in roles (he represented the solution integrator, I represented the business). He travelled down to London from the North and stayed over every week, I doubt he paid for those travel expenses personally.

The definition of "supply of labour" needs to be expanded on as well. Do we supply labour, or intellectual services?

[MrMarkyMark]

In the last role I had, the Accenture bod was my mirror image in roles (he represented the solution integrator, I represented the business).

Hopefully, not a mirror image in capabilities .
I tend to think Accenture are best kept away from the technology side of things, or anything really.