The end is nigh ?

[highlandspring]

IRS 35

It does seem strange the new regime only starts in April, so surely they are only pushing away people that would consider short term work.

[JohntheBike]

We've got exactly the same at my clients and I've managed to get myself on it recently. They've made a pretty good job of it to be fair. Tons of groups involved from the people including groups actually using contractors, agency, legal representatives (internal and bought in) that know IR35, agency and so on. I actually don't think I can make much difference except challenge certain information or assumptions. Problem here is IT contractors only make up a small number of contractors. We've got a ton of drivers, admin and other people running PSC's etc that are more problematic than us but I'll be making sure it's not done as a one size fits all although looking at the people in the forum I don't think they would have done.

What you could ask HR, if they are willing to share, which I doubt, is who is involved in this working group. The best you can probably do is asses if they've got the right people to give some piece of mind. If they have the right people then there is probably very little value add having contractors contributing.

One major point though. I got a good grilling of what I know about IR35 past and present and about how it's applied and what I think I might be able to contribute. I'd hope other clients will do the same and not just accept any contractor in that's got an axe to grind or worried about their personal status. Getting some idiot like JohnTheBike on a working group like this is going to cause a hell of a lot more damage than add value. We have to tread carefully in these types of groups.

"Getting some idiot like JohnTheBike on a working group like this is going to cause a hell of a lot more damage than add value"

by even suggesting I might be invited onto such a group, which is extremely unlikely, you are conceding that I could have a noticeable affect on the issues. So far there has been no evidence to suggest that dialogue has had any affect on the issues. Progress has only been made where court cases have been involved.

and whatever you might think, I've kept HMRC off my back for nigh on 18 years now as a result of the action I took. So from my personal point of view, and everyone will approach the issues from their own point of view, my actions were entirely justified.

[northernladuk]

Just had the following email reply from HR



There's a working group????? I am tempted to ask who is the contractors representative on that working group, but I think I already know the answer. Gattica!

We've got exactly the same at my clients and I've managed to get myself on it recently. They've made a pretty good job of it to be fair. Tons of groups involved from the people including groups actually using contractors, agency, legal representatives (internal and bought in) that know IR35, agency and so on. I actually don't think I can make much difference except challenge certain information or assumptions. Problem here is IT contractors only make up a small number of contractors. We've got a ton of drivers, admin and other people running PSC's etc that are more problematic than us but I'll be making sure it's not done as a one size fits all although looking at the people in the forum I don't think they would have done.

What you could ask HR, if they are willing to share, which I doubt, is who is involved in this working group. The best you can probably do is asses if they've got the right people to give some piece of mind. If they have the right people then there is probably very little value add having contractors contributing.

One major point though. I got a good grilling of what I know about IR35 past and present and about how it's applied and what I think I might be able to contribute. I'd hope other clients will do the same and not just accept any contractor in that's got an axe to grind or worried about their personal status. Getting some idiot like JohnTheBike on a working group like this is going to cause a hell of a lot more damage than add value. We have to tread carefully in these types of groups.

[Yorkie62]

Just had the following email reply from HR

I am afraid that we do not have the answers to your queries below just yet.

There is a working party looking at the impact of IR35 and we hope to have an update on this, following their next meeting which I believe is taking place next week.

Once I hear more, I shall let you know.

There's a working group????? I am tempted to ask who is the contractors representative on that working group, but I think I already know the answer. Gattica!

[JohntheBike]

Currently in the process of raising this with HR at my current gig. I know they want to engage me on new project (yet to start) after my current contract ends in July for on a 12 month contract (not within the 24 month rule). A years contract will take me beyond April 2020 so I am trying to engage with the HR department regarding their stance on the proposed off payroll reform in the private sector. So far, I am not having much success. The local engineering management team are clueless regarding IR35, and to be honest why should they be any different, deferring the issue to HR.

The organisation concerned is a non UK owned multinational company, although I will be engaged solely by the UK arm of that company.

I'll let you know how I get on.

"clueless regarding IR35,"

this is why I believe that when the realisation of the implications of the April 2020 roll out are known, many clients in this position will be intimidated by HMRC into classing their contractors as caught. Yes, there are some clients who may understand the implications, but I believe that even they will be intimidated into applying blanket assessments. We really do need a high profile client, e.g. the BBC to lose a case in the ET/EAT, i.e. a contractor classed as caught by CEST wins a case for full employment benefits. But I guess if any such case did reach the ET, there is every likely hood that the plaintiff, the client and the ET would come under HMG pressure to settle out of court, just as happened in the Winchester case.

[Yorkie62]

It's an argument I've tried to raise on occasion too. Quite often, hiring a contractor is a tax (and other costs) dodge for the client. However, HMG/HMRC have chosen to pick on the easier target rather than upset their buddies in big business.

Currently in the process of raising this with HR at my current gig. I know they want to engage me on new project (yet to start) after my current contract ends in July for on a 12 month contract (not within the 24 month rule). A years contract will take me beyond April 2020 so I am trying to engage with the HR department regarding their stance on the proposed off payroll reform in the private sector. So far, I am not having much success. The local engineering management team are clueless regarding IR35, and to be honest why should they be any different, deferring the issue to HR.

The organisation concerned is a non UK owned multinational company, although I will be engaged solely by the UK arm of that company.

I'll let you know how I get on.

[ladymuck]

It's an argument I've tried to raise on occasion too. Quite often, hiring a contractor is a tax (and other costs) dodge for the client. However, HMG/HMRC have chosen to pick on the easier target rather than upset their buddies in big business.

[JohntheBike]

The highlighted parts scream BOS permietractor role which should be inside IR35 now, let alone Apr 2020. The end client is awake to the fact that they will be in the firing line so are getting their house in order early.

Right from the beginning of IR35, my question has been, why should the contractor be punished for a situation that the clients have created and which in many cases, the contractors are forced to accept, whilst suffering no penalty themselves?

BOS permietractors have been created by the clients and there should be some equal responsibility on them for doing so. I contend that the implications of that should be that anyone working in such a way who is judged by HMRC as a "disguised employee" should receive employee benefits. However, we are always faced with HMG's position that employee for tax purposes doesn't mean employee benefits accrue. However, as I've stated many times, there is no case law supporting that position. Even now, after all these years, no one has been able to challenge HMG's position in court on this issue.

Here is an extract from the letter received from my Labour MP about the Shadow Treasury team's opinion on the issues -

"There are indeed very real concerns that workers are being forced into self employment by unscrupulous employers to avoid costs and their duty to workers" and

"However, ultimately we (the Labour Party) made a commitment in our manifesto to tackle tax avoidance"

So, the inference is that the penalties will still fall on the contractors as there is no mention of any policy to tackle the approach of the clients.

[Acme Thunderer]

I'm a design engineering contactor so slightly different to most of you guys. I received this Email earlier from an agency:

"I have an urgent requirement x3 Mechanical Design Engineers for a six month rolling contract based in the West Midlands (Near Worcester). You will be working for a global aerospace engineering company, mainly working on projects for xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

You must have experience using CATIA v5.

The highlighted parts scream BOS permietractor role which should be inside IR35 now, let alone Apr 2020. The end client is awake to the fact that they will be in the firing line so are getting their house in order early.

[Hobosapien]

Yes by using term rolling contract I think what they really mean is; if you're half decent there's a good chance you'll get another 6 month contract when this one ends.

That's certainly a common way of accurately interpreting it.

So if the client is on the ball and has assessed up front that the contract would be inside IR35 come next April then it makes sense to operate that way from now, otherwise there's the issue of being potentially outside IR35 now (not guaranteed as that determination still needs to be made based on initial contract and actual working practices once in contract) and inside IR35 later for the same contract/piece of work.

No sure how 'in-flight' contracts will be affected come next April (we won't know for sure until the actual rules are published) such as whether the client determination is only required for new contracts beyond that date, which would make sense. If they apply for contracts at renewal then there's the retrospective tax issue to worry about if not operating inside IR35 from the start.

As it is it's a moot point for this particular vacancy anyway, whatever the client/agency want is what you have to conform to regardless of how ill informed they may be. If they struggle to find anyone to fill the vacancy then they may be open to changes to the terms such as allowing contractor to use Ltd and make own determination on IR35 status (as per the current rules) and remove the 'rolling' aspect so it terminates by next April if there is some risk/worry the client/agency is trying to avoid.

[FrankyFingers]

The agency have called it a 'rolling contract' which is a term agencies misuse daily.

An actual 'six month rolling contract' is one where, every day you go in, you have six months left on your contract, so in that sense, it would be like a semi perm job. In reality, these contracts are rarely if ever used in our industries. More common for second rate football managers.

Yes by using term rolling contract I think what they really mean is; if you're half decent there's a good chance you'll get another 6 month contract when this one ends.

[FrankyFingers]

I think in your last sentence you mean April 2020?

It is odd though that for a contract of 6 months, so will end before the reforms start, they are worried? Its as if the work will be on-going and is basically like a permanent job?

Brillo you are correct I have edited to reflect.

[TestMangler]

I think in your last sentence you mean April 2020?

It is odd though that for a contract of 6 months, so will end before the reforms start, they are worried? Its as if the work will be on-going and is basically like a permanent job?

The agency have called it a 'rolling contract' which is a term agencies misuse daily.

An actual 'six month rolling contract' is one where, every day you go in, you have six months left on your contract, so in that sense, it would be like a semi perm job. In reality, these contracts are rarely if ever used in our industries. More common for second rate football managers.

[BrilloPad]

I'm a design engineering contactor so slightly different to most of you guys. I received this Email earlier from an agency:

"I have an urgent requirement x3 Mechanical Design Engineers for a six month rolling contract based in the West Midlands (Near Worcester). You will be working for a global aerospace engineering company, mainly working on projects for xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

You must have experience using CATIA v5.

£35p/h - £45 p/h DOE

Please note, due to the incoming Ir35 regulations, only contractors who are willing to operate as PAYE or Umbrella contractor will be accepted.

Finally if you are happily employed and no longer looking for work please respond so we can remove your details from our database."

So it looks like companies/agencies are already rolling out the reforms even before April 2019.

I think in your last sentence you mean April 2020?

It is odd though that for a contract of 6 months, so will end before the reforms start, they are worried? Its as if the work will be on-going and is basically like a permanent job?

[FrankyFingers]

I'm a design engineering contactor so slightly different to most of you guys. I received this Email earlier from an agency:

"I have an urgent requirement x3 Mechanical Design Engineers for a six month rolling contract based in the West Midlands (Near Worcester). You will be working for a global aerospace engineering company, mainly working on projects for xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

You must have experience using CATIA v5.

£35p/h - £45 p/h DOE

Please note, due to the incoming Ir35 regulations, only contractors who are willing to operate as PAYE or Umbrella contractor will be accepted.

Finally if you are happily employed and no longer looking for work please respond so we can remove your details from our database."

So it looks like companies/agencies are already rolling out the reforms even before April 2020.