Reply to: Brollies want SDC for all

[GB9]

I am not subject to, nor does my client have the right to, SDC as per my contract.

3.1 Neither the Company nor the Client shall be entitled to or seek to exercise any supervision, direction or control over the Contractor or the operatives in the manner of performance of the Project

Now that looks good.

No doubt HMRC would want to check working practises etc. but as a starting point it looks pretty solid.

End clients would just have to decide if that's what they wanted and say so up front.

[Zero Liability]

Just from skimreading it, it looks like they have.

So it looks like my skimreading skills failed. It is still OR. I'll take that flogging now.

[Yorkie62]

I am not subject to, nor does my client have the right to, SDC as per my contract.

3.1 Neither the Company nor the Client shall be entitled to or seek to exercise any supervision, direction or control over the Contractor or the operatives in the manner of performance of the Project

[GB9]

It is woolly yup, and interesting in the interpretations. If I'd told the painter which brush to use, whether to cut in first or after the main wall, how to prep the wall then I'd say I was controlling how to undertake the actual painting and to me that would fall under DC

Case law supports your view.

Saying you want a white wall as opposed to a blue is not sdc as currently defined.

It might benefit a few to read the sdc definitions on here.

[gables]

My interpretation is that they are exercising direction over how it is delivered. It's a very woolly area, I agree.

It is woolly yup, and interesting in the interpretations. If I'd told the painter which brush to use, whether to cut in first or after the main wall, how to prep the wall then I'd say I was controlling how to undertake the actual painting and to me that would fall under DC

[LondonManc]

You see, I don't think the above is SDC, those are requirements... from the other thread, I've bolded the bit in, er, bold



Surely SDC is about how you go about the work; you tell the painter what you want painted not how to paint it, you tell the civil engineer about the bridge not how to design it or build it, you tell the IT consultant the report requirements (look feel, output file type) not how he goes about creating it.

or am I missing something?

My interpretation is that they are exercising direction over how it is delivered. It's a very woolly area, I agree.

[MrMarkyMark]

FTFY

you tell the IT consultant to guess the report requirements (look feel, output file type) as you consider, you are far too busy to write them.

[gables]

Sorry Lisa, but applying SDC to everything would make no sense whatsoever. I cannot imagine many situations where a contractor is not subject to one of S, D OR C at some point in their contract, no matter what industry.

Painters and decorators - I want my hall, stairs and landing doing in magnolia with white skirting boards. Inside IR35

Plumber - I want this sink that I've bought fitting on that wall next to the bath.

Architect - I want a house designing that will fit on this plot of land. It must have four or five bedroom, two of which are ensuite and a garage with room for two cars.

Civil Engineer - We need a bridge over the river from this road to this road. It must be two lanes in both directions and should be fixed since no boats need to pass under it.

IT consultant - We need this suite of reports building. They must adhere to corporate colours and include the company logo in the top right corner.

You see, I don't think the above is SDC, those are requirements... from the other thread, I've bolded the bit in, er, bold

"3.13 Although the government recognises that supervision, direction or control
is a subjective test, and that a minority of engagements will be hard to
categorise, it believes that clear guidance should help ensure businesses
and individuals are able to understand when a worker is under the right of
supervision, direction or control in the manner they undertake their work.
There is already a substantial amount of case law in this area, which will
further support HMRC’s guidance and the understanding of these terms.
HMRC will review the existing guidance on supervision, direction or
10
control and issue guidance for this measure before it comes into force in
2016."

Surely SDC is about how you go about the work; you tell the painter what you want painted not how to paint it, you tell the civil engineer about the bridge not how to design it or build it, you tell the IT consultant the report requirements (look feel, output file type) not how he goes about creating it.

or am I missing something?

[LondonManc]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you're a disguised permie, you should have rights similar to a permie. If 80% or more of employee rights don't apply to a person fulfilling a given contract then they should be deemed outside IR35.

HMRC/HMG are not designing this to be a fair test; they're simply desperate for cash and this issue is too vague and non-mainstream to affect a lot of the knuckle-dragging electorate.

[LondonManc]

It would make sense from a lunatic, broke, desperate-to-balance-the-books, short-termist idiot's point of view

, I grant you. Given the early day motions that have gone in, it's clear that all MPs aren't as idiotically short-sighted as G.O.

well yes............

I am using a MAC so please excuse any error of this sort i.e. the bad highlighting - sorry

No problem.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

[QUOTE=LondonManc;2181718]It would make sense from a lunatic, broke, desperate-to-balance-the-books, short-termist idiot's point of view, I grant you. Given the early day motions that have gone in, it's clear that all MPs aren't as idiotically short-sighted as G.O.[/QUOTE]

well yes............

I am using a MAC so please excuse any error of this sort i.e. the bad highlighting - sorry

[LondonManc]

I meant in this industry and from HMRC's point of view. Applying SDC to T&S and IR35 would simplify things for them - this will never be about simplifying things for us

It would make sense from a lunatic, broke, desperate-to-balance-the-books, short-termist idiot's point of view, I grant you. Given the early day motions that have gone in, it's clear that all MPs aren't as idiotically short-sighted as G.O.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Sorry Lisa, but applying SDC to everything would make no sense whatsoever. I cannot imagine many situations where a contractor is not subject to one of S, D OR C at some point in their contract, no matter what industry.

Painters and decorators - I want my hall, stairs and landing doing in magnolia with white skirting boards. Inside IR35

Plumber - I want this sink that I've bought fitting on that wall next to the bath.

Architect - I want a house designing that will fit on this plot of land. It must have four or five bedroom, two of which are ensuite and a garage with room for two cars.

Civil Engineer - We need a bridge over the river from this road to this road. It must be two lanes in both directions and should be fixed since no boats need to pass under it.

IT consultant - We need this suite of reports building. They must adhere to corporate colours and include the company logo in the top right corner.

I meant in this industry and from HMRC's point of view. Applying SDC to T&S and IR35 would simplify things for them - this will never be about simplifying things for us

[LondonManc]

The point I was making was not that I advocate SDC being applied to absolutely everything from here on in - merely that, from a point of view of a logical step forward, it would make sense that it was applied to everything. I have gained an idea of how HMRC think over the years and it seems to me that they have thought up the idea of having a single determining factor for status and have hung their hat on it - therefore it would make sense to them to apply it to IR35.

Hope that clears that up - can I go back to my hols now :howell

Sorry Lisa, but applying SDC to everything would make no sense whatsoever. I cannot imagine many situations where a contractor is not subject to one of S, D OR C at some point in their contract, no matter what industry.

Painters and decorators - I want my hall, stairs and landing doing in magnolia with white skirting boards. Inside IR35

Plumber - I want this sink that I've bought fitting on that wall next to the bath.

Architect - I want a house designing that will fit on this plot of land. It must have four or five bedroom, two of which are ensuite and a garage with room for two cars.

Civil Engineer - We need a bridge over the river from this road to this road. It must be two lanes in both directions and should be fixed since no boats need to pass under it.

IT consultant - We need this suite of reports building. They must adhere to corporate colours and include the company logo in the top right corner.

[Zero Liability]

The solution is very simple. Change it from S, D OR C to S, D AND C

Just from skimreading it, it looks like they have.