Reply to: What are the clients going to do assuming HMR&C and Osborne get their way?

[MrMarkyMark]

It was a new product/business change type programme though not IT.

LondonManc works in IT, hence his comment.

Consultancies can be good at BA / Business Change work, just don't let them near your technology

[MrMarkyMark]

Couldn't clients offer MSAs (think they are called that). A while ago a client offered me one of these. Basically they ask you to quote for some project based task. You may not win the work every time. Work orders generated each time. You provide the tools (laptop,software) use their system where needed. The hours worked are offsite, project dependant, could be a few hours a week or every day (it is timeline driven so up to you). You are allowed other clients. This client also had bums on seats contractors but was getting IR35 twitchy and did not want to imply MOO.

Surely that could never fail IR35 or be subject to the 1 month then payroll rule?
It would also work well for a lot of clients.

I'm looking at just this now.
I don't believe the rules could apply to fixed price work of this nature.

[Danglekt]

The bigger problem is that the more talented consultants are there to sell more days as a priority over getting the job done.

100% agree

[LondonManc]

That's a bit mean...

I have worked alongside a team from a consultancy and there were some in the team I'd genuinely rate. It was a new product/business change type programme though not IT.

Problem was the assignment bod was never sure who he could get - he knew who he wanted and managed to secure them most of the time, but when he couldn't you'd get any old (or newbie) pair of hands warming a seat.

Still not sure the value proposition is that great though

I've worked at one client where a consultant suddenly stopped turning up. I asked what had happened and was told by the team lead that he'd taken a full day to write a basic table create script having been sold in as a "SQL guy". Team lead advised that he wouldn't be paying for any of the consultant's days and if he wanted to turn up again, he was happy for the SQL guy to shadow another consultant but not at ClientCo's expense.

The bigger problem is that the more talented consultants are there to sell more days as a priority over getting the job done.

[Danglekt]

That's a bit mean...

I have worked alongside a team from a consultancy and there were some in the team I'd genuinely rate. It was a new product/business change type programme though not IT.

Problem was the assignment bod was never sure who he could get - he knew who he wanted and managed to secure them most of the time, but when he couldn't you'd get any old (or newbie) pair of hands warming a seat.

Still not sure the value proposition is that great though

[LondonManc]

It's not so much upfront cost that would concern clients as long-term risk. They don't want a bunch of contractors on payroll, outside of their main business area, with all associated employment liabilities. I'd assume the path of least resistance, in many cases, would be a FTC.

I'm tempted to go semi-darkside for a couple of years for a sector-specific consulting specialist and get training on the latest versions of the tools I'm using. Stick it out until I'm made redundant because the contract market has gotten back on track and off we go again.

[jamesbrown]

And at double the day rate (even including any potential - but unlikley, tax liability) thats an expensive way to "solve" the problem.

It's not so much upfront cost that would concern clients as long-term risk. They don't want a bunch of contractors on payroll, outside of their main business area, with all associated employment liabilities. I'd assume the path of least resistance, in many cases, would be a FTC.

[LondonManc]

Agreed - the theory is that it's a different model, but the reality...

You get a pitch team with all their well known top bods, then the actual team that turn up to do the work are a mix of good bad and ugly, as they can't be sure they will get their hands on the best of their teams.

They have duffers too.

And at double the day rate (even including any potential - but unlikley, tax liability) thats an expensive way to "solve" the problem.

[Danglekt]

But it's a different model. You can't compare it body by body. They also handle all the resourcing and engagement so a lot less process/admin at client side. They (should) provide a full service not individual bodies and so on. All those points are arguable but that's the theory.

Agreed - the theory is that it's a different model, but the reality...

You get a pitch team with all their well known top bods, then the actual team that turn up to do the work are a mix of good bad and ugly, as they can't be sure they will get their hands on the best of their teams.

They have duffers too.

And at double the day rate (even including any potential - but unlikley, tax liability) thats an expensive way to "solve" the problem.

[northernladuk]

But it's a different model. You can't compare it body by body. They also handle all the resourcing and engagement so a lot less process/admin at client side. They (should) provide a full service not individual bodies and so on. All those points are arguable but that's the theory.

[Danglekt]

I have Kpmg coming in tomorrow to advise on replacing contractors with Kpmg staff if this hits - I will make sure I get a good lunch and hide my contractor badge

The day rate on them is through the roof though, I charge well, yet a big consultancy were charging their bods out at x3 my day rate and upwards...

"Dear Client, we know you are paying £500 per day for X, Y and Z contractor. You may become liable for up to 60% of their day rate if they don't pay up properly! The total exposure per contractor could therefore be £800 PER DAY! (day rate plus potential liability)

Protect your company by getting in our XXXXX Consultancy support at only £1500 per day for the same level of support."

It just doesn't make sense for the client unless they drop their rates - but then how will they be able to justify the £1500+ per day rates for average PM type in future if they drop to compete with the potential exposure we may or may not present as freeelancers?

[ZARDOZ]

Couldn't clients offer MSAs (think they are called that). A while ago a client offered me one of these. Basically they ask you to quote for some project based task. You may not win the work every time. Work orders generated each time. You provide the tools (laptop,software) use their system where needed. The hours worked are offsite, project dependant, could be a few hours a week or every day (it is timeline driven so up to you). You are allowed other clients. This client also had bums on seats contractors but was getting IR35 twitchy and did not want to imply MOO.

Surely that could never fail IR35 or be subject to the 1 month then payroll rule?
It would also work well for a lot of clients.

[MarkT]

The only problem with this type of consultancy is that they cost 2.5 times a day rate contractor and still no guarantee that you get a good one.

Even the overseas lot charge more than day rate for on shore resource.

of course - but then contractors don't put Tory finance ministers on their boards do they? And that's probably got more to do with this than anything else.

[GB9]

You have wonder if KPMG, Deloitte, Capita etc have already been briefed.

The only problem with this type of consultancy is that they cost 2.5 times a day rate contractor and still no guarantee that you get a good one.

Even the overseas lot charge more than day rate for on shore resource.

[MarkT]

He consistently drops fellow contractors in the tulip. I wouldnt let it bother you.

You have wonder if KPMG, Deloitte, Capita etc have already been briefed.