Reply to: Nokia e71

[Peoplesoft bloke]

E71 on its way to me.

[Sockpuppet]

so what about the e71 then????

Its a phone.

[mailric]

so what about the e71 then????

[voodooflux]

As far as the no-background-apps thing goes, I've heard that a lot of developers are upset about this, but to me it just suggests that one should rethink the way one's app works to suit the platform.

I think that while there are certainly alternatives to background processes in many cases, there are also scenarios where such processes are the perfect (and sometimes the only) solution and anything else is a cludge. IM is an obvious example. Some of my previous mobile projects would be severely hindered (and probably just not be possible) on the current iPhone platform.

I think this limitation of the platform has the potential to stifle innovation to some degree in the current generation of third-party iPhone apps, which is a great shame.

I don’t think the “no background” policy implies any spite or shortsightedness on Apple’s part. It’s simply the result of Apple’s decision to focus first and foremost on maximizing battery life and performance.

I see a lot of comments that attribute this decision to some hidden agenda of Apple to control third party applications, but my belief is that Apple have made a pragmatic decision to make the iPhone experience as idiot-proof as possible for the casual user in the easiest way possible - can't fault them for that. And that's not a comment on the target market for the iPhone

What’s the advice for the typical user supposed to be? 'Have fun with the App Store, but don’t install too much crap'?

Absoutely, that is always genuinely sensible advice on any platform! Having to cater for untidy people is spoiling the fun for the rest of us

This is my 2000th non-Light-Relief post on CUK

Contrats NF

[ruth11]

Yep. All good arguments from his perspective.

But I'll probably jailbreak mine if I get another one. I have to say, the Omnia will have to be good to compete.

[NickFitz]

Interesting. It's a couple of weeks since I had my iPhone and had forgotten about how it works, but now you mention it, I remember reading what I mentioned in my above response to voodooflux. I think quite a few of the apps that people want though, do require the ability to run in the background (can't think of an example at the mo, but poss an IM client?) and the devs can't do it legitimately right now for the App Store. You'll still have to Jailbreak to run apps like this I think. It's mainly only a "niggle" for me with Safari - I would prefer to go to my homepage every time I opened it, rather than the last page I was on, because my homepage is Google and more often than not I want to search for something (I know I could create a shortcut on the app page, but that just launches a 2nd Safari window and that bugs me too for some reason!).

I would like an MMS and MSN app, as well as slingbox if they eventually get it going on version 2.

Sorry for hijacking this thread to talk iPhone.

To do a Google search, tap on the magnifying glass icon next to the location bar (top of the Safari window) and it opens the Google search box, which is part of the phone's UI - you don't need to go to Google manually. (You can configure this to use Yahoo! instead, apparently, but I don't suppose anybody does - most people at Y! use Google anyway )

As far as the no-background-apps thing goes, I've heard that a lot of developers are upset about this, but to me it just suggests that one should rethink the way one's app works to suit the platform. (As Gruber points out, even those Apple apps that run in the background, such as Mail, will actually be shut down if the frontmost app needs more resources.)

Gruber again:

"If the app you really want to write requires [background processing], then yes, the current SDK is disappointing. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of other ideas that will work just fine.

"...I don’t think the “no background” policy implies any spite or shortsightedness on Apple’s part. It’s simply the result of Apple’s decision to focus first and foremost on maximizing battery life and performance. Other mobile platforms, such as Android, may well have different priorities."

And yet again:

"Imagine a scenario where background apps are allowed on the iPhone this summer. Some typical user buys and installs 10 apps from the App Store. Three of them are background-capable apps, and two of those three are so resource hungry that they have a noticeable drag on battery life. How are typical users — not Ian Betteridge, not me, and probably not you, but typical users — supposed to know which apps are causing the problem? How are they even going to know which apps do continue to run in the background? They won’t. A likely reaction would simply be to regret ever having junked up their iPhone with any third-party apps at all.

"Or imagine a situation where a user installs five background-capable apps, none of which, on their own, significantly affect system-wide performance or battery life, but which in combination all running simultaneously, do. They’re all using RAM, all using the CPU, and all periodically using the network. What’s the advice for the typical user supposed to be? 'Have fun with the App Store, but don’t install too much crap'?

"If you truly demand the right to be able to shoot yourself in the foot with the software you install on your phone — which is a perfectly reasonable desire, and is how things work on the Mac — then the non-jailbroken iPhone isn’t for you."

This is my 2000th non-Light-Relief post on CUK

[ruth11]

You don't need to close things off to save memory - it does it automatically:

"There is no concept of launching or quitting — there is only switching. This illusion is maintained by keeping launch and quit times as brief as possible. General rule: When an iPhone app quits, whatever you’re currently doing is saved; when it re-launches, whatever you were doing is restored...

"... The profound simplicity of the iPhone user interface stems in part from the complete lack of interface elements for managing processes. There is no task manager or memory meter; if you want to know what’s running, the answer is simply whatever app it is that you’re looking at. Even the blessed apps that do run in the background, like Mail and Safari, must be prepared to quit at any time if the system requires more memory for the frontmost app. (That’s why Safari’s tabs occasionally blank out — the URLs for each tab are remembered, but the contents must be reloaded the next time Safari launches.)"

- John Gruber, One App at a Time

IIRC Steve Jobs reserved a chunk of his iPhone-presenting keynote at WWDC for deriding Windows Mobile in the most scathing terms for being so braindead as to require a task manager on a handheld device.

I've got a Windows Mobile PDA for testing on IE Mobile, and I always thought it was utterly ridiculous that apps I'd stopped using kept sitting in the background, consuming resources that could be used by the task at hand. Just my two-penn'orth, but apparently Steve agrees with me

Interesting. It's a couple of weeks since I had my iPhone and had forgotten about how it works, but now you mention it, I remember reading what I mentioned in my above response to voodooflux. I think quite a few of the apps that people want though, do require the ability to run in the background (can't think of an example at the mo, but poss an IM client?) and the devs can't do it legitimately right now for the App Store. You'll still have to Jailbreak to run apps like this I think. It's mainly only a "niggle" for me with Safari - I would prefer to go to my homepage every time I opened it, rather than the last page I was on, because my homepage is Google and more often than not I want to search for something (I know I could create a shortcut on the app page, but that just launches a 2nd Safari window and that bugs me too for some reason!).

I would like an MMS and MSN app, as well as slingbox if they eventually get it going on version 2.

Sorry for hijacking this thread to talk iPhone.

[ruth11]

So what happens if you *want* to keep an app running in the background on the iPhone - is this possible i.e. can a process politely decline when the OS asks it to unload? Mobile projects I've worked on in the past have required this behaviour, and in such cases I need to make the choice on what processes I want running rather than have the device do it for me.

I think a balance between the two models would be perfect i.e. some way of flagging a process to indicate that it shouldn't be unloaded, but all others processes are up for grabs.

That, and making it easier to actually "close" a Windows Mobile app would be nice.

Having read a few articles on the app developers forums (whilst searching for info on jailbreaking) I think the answer is no, which is why devs are having problems creating decent apps for the new firmware. I think they can do it on a jailbroken machine but not as standard.

[juststarting]

ive changed the software on my diamond, replaced the t-mob Rom with a cooked one from xda developers upgraded the radio now it runs like a dream! you can customise the interface and my batt lasts me 2 days with about 1.5 hours of calls and surfing and my 3G is on all the time.

Hi which ROM would that be and would it run on Kaiser ? Thanks..

[voodooflux]

IIRC Steve Jobs reserved a chunk of his iPhone-presenting keynote at WWDC for deriding Windows Mobile in the most scathing terms for being so braindead as to require a task manager on a handheld device.

I've got a Windows Mobile PDA for testing on IE Mobile, and I always thought it was utterly ridiculous that apps I'd stopped using kept sitting in the background, consuming resources that could be used by the task at hand. Just my two-penn'orth, but apparently Steve agrees with me

So what happens if you *want* to keep an app running in the background on the iPhone - is this possible i.e. can a process politely decline when the OS asks it to unload? Mobile projects I've worked on in the past have required this behaviour, and in such cases I need to make the choice on what processes I want running rather than have the device do it for me.

I think a balance between the two models would be perfect i.e. some way of flagging a process to indicate that it shouldn't be unloaded, but all others processes are up for grabs.

That, and making it easier to actually "close" a Windows Mobile app would be nice.

[NickFitz]

(or maybe even close things off to save memory etc - like Safari, it always opened on the last page I was on rather than the homepage) are all things that made me unsure.

You don't need to close things off to save memory - it does it automatically:

"There is no concept of launching or quitting — there is only switching. This illusion is maintained by keeping launch and quit times as brief as possible. General rule: When an iPhone app quits, whatever you’re currently doing is saved; when it re-launches, whatever you were doing is restored...

"... The profound simplicity of the iPhone user interface stems in part from the complete lack of interface elements for managing processes. There is no task manager or memory meter; if you want to know what’s running, the answer is simply whatever app it is that you’re looking at. Even the blessed apps that do run in the background, like Mail and Safari, must be prepared to quit at any time if the system requires more memory for the frontmost app. (That’s why Safari’s tabs occasionally blank out — the URLs for each tab are remembered, but the contents must be reloaded the next time Safari launches.)"

- John Gruber, One App at a Time

IIRC Steve Jobs reserved a chunk of his iPhone-presenting keynote at WWDC for deriding Windows Mobile in the most scathing terms for being so braindead as to require a task manager on a handheld device.

I've got a Windows Mobile PDA for testing on IE Mobile, and I always thought it was utterly ridiculous that apps I'd stopped using kept sitting in the background, consuming resources that could be used by the task at hand. Just my two-penn'orth, but apparently Steve agrees with me

[ruth11]

I thought the iphone 3G is quite good. A little gimmicky perhaps but web surfing is great on it... I was surfing all the way on the train today for an hour.

Some features are rubbish, such as text messaging and the camera. I guess it just depends on what you can live without and what features you really want.

I liked it too, for the exact reasons you mentioned, also loved the interface, the GPS was good, the ipod obviously good. But I want to see the Omnia before I decide for sure. Lack of MMS and bluetooth file exchange, not being able to run multiple apps (or maybe even close things off to save memory etc - like Safari, it always opened on the last page I was on rather than the homepage) are all things that made me unsure. I may well go back to it in a few months, but will certainly jailbreak it if I do.

[gadgetman]

I'm seriously considering the N82. Anyone got one?

[voodooflux]

ive changed the software on my diamond, replaced the t-mob Rom with a cooked one from xda developers upgraded the radio now it runs like a dream! you can customise the interface and my batt lasts me 2 days with about 1.5 hours of calls and surfing and my 3G is on all the time.

That sounds like a major improvement. I did try a lot of the hacks from xda developers with respect to user interface performance, with some good results.

A friend of mine bought a third-party extended battery recently, but it makes the device much chunkier.

[poser]

I tried the HTC Diamond but also sent mine back - the performance of the interface was pretty bad out-of-the-box (can be improved with a few hacks though) and the battery life was appalling. I also don't think it looked as good as I was expecting, and the build quality is certainly not up to that of the iPhone. The Omnia looks interesting though...

ive changed the software on my diamond, replaced the t-mob Rom with a cooked one from xda developers upgraded the radio now it runs like a dream! you can customise the interface and my batt lasts me 2 days with about 1.5 hours of calls and surfing and my 3G is on all the time.