Reply to: IR35 Pulled Out Of Finance Bill Until April 2021

[ladymuck]

Fungible. Now there's a word I've not heard used in a while.

[elsergiovolador]

If you were paying yourself the basic wage designed to establish an NIC record, then the 80% furlough payment be based on that. In other words, if you take the majority of your income from the company as a dividend, then this will be unprotected by the furlough payments.

It's funny though that this money goes into the same bucket anyway. The dividend money has therefore less value than NI money which that kind of makes the pound not fungible as one pound is not equal one pound.

I wonder if people who designed this even know what money is exactly.

[northernladuk]

Part 1
I previously posted my situation that others may be in and have a wee update. Re-cap.... I determined myself outside (CEST, 12 week contracts, project work etc). My contracted client put me outside using a purpose built tool written by a big finance company for them. My main client blanketed all agency workers (over 80) plus me and one other inside. I appealed and today got an email from them (as all others did that I know off) 'IR35 SDS's and no longer legally binding therefore any appeal is the same, no further action to be taken, PSC's to determine their own status and pay tax etc." or words to that effect. Grr. The aforementioned target may now be applied if I stay. So I leave. Now then...

Part 2
Now this will affect loads of us... I am a working director for my limited company on PAYE and dividend income, my company also employs my wife PAYE to do admin etc. also a director. Can I furthough myself as an employee, my wife or both if I leave my client? I can work from home but dont want to with their false SDS hanging over me. I understand that the self employed help doesnt apply to limited companies

I was thinking of telling them I can no longer work from home for some reason (I have a few) so they bump me as per the other guys working for my client got this week. I'm the only one taking my scopes of work directly from the main client and not from my contracted client.

Thanks

If your wifes job *cough* is managing the company and it's day to day running then that does not stop if you are furloughed so no, furloughing your wife is taking the piss.

In fact thinking about it. Your wife isn't a director and I'll be she isn't even an employee so doesn't qualify anyway.

[webberg]

If you were paying yourself the basic wage designed to establish an NIC record, then the 80% furlough payment be based on that. In other words, if you take the majority of your income from the company as a dividend, then this will be unprotected by the furlough payments.

[OnlyWayIsUp]

In a right pickle

Part 1
I previously posted my situation that others may be in and have a wee update. Re-cap.... I determined myself outside (CEST, 12 week contracts, project work etc). My contracted client put me outside using a purpose built tool written by a big finance company for them. My main client blanketed all agency workers (over 80) plus me and one other inside. I appealed and today got an email from them (as all others did that I know off) 'IR35 SDS's and no longer legally binding therefore any appeal is the same, no further action to be taken, PSC's to determine their own status and pay tax etc." or words to that effect. Grr. The aforementioned target may now be applied if I stay. So I leave. Now then...

Part 2
Now this will affect loads of us... I am a working director for my limited company on PAYE and dividend income, my company also employs my wife PAYE to do admin etc. also a director. Can I furthough myself as an employee, my wife or both if I leave my client? I can work from home but dont want to with their false SDS hanging over me. I understand that the self employed help doesnt apply to limited companies

I was thinking of telling them I can no longer work from home for some reason (I have a few) so they bump me as per the other guys working for my client got this week. I'm the only one taking my scopes of work directly from the main client and not from my contracted client.

Thanks

[Lockhouse]

Indeed, a very similar situation. For what it's worth with the fighting (arguments) on record and the fact the pre april determinations aren't legal but only an opinion which was likely wrong due to incorrect process (laziness, blanket assessments), there is very little chance HMRC will attack. So safe in my opinion. Besides you and I know we are in the right with our own assessments. Those that rolled over and took it all were more than likely inside.

That's very true.

Client HR have officially recorded my SDS as "Incomplete". That's the best that I could have hoped for under the circumstances and I'm happy with that. I'm pushing for a COA and a new schedule with a cast iron SOW. Of course, with things the way they are it could all change tomorrow.

[ladymuck]

We did it in the public sector two years ago as well.

Oh there will be the same questions and more I'm sure. There will also be the ones that still don't understand it and are crapping themselves they were determined inside, decided to go outside and get determined inside again
I'll be buying some paint for them to put their own target on their backs.

Sew on patches is more environmentally friendly

[northernladuk]

at least all the players on here have had a dry run in helping newbies with questions so there shouldn't be any further questions in feb/march 2021 !

We did it in the public sector two years ago as well.

Oh there will be the same questions and more I'm sure. There will also be the ones that still don't understand it and are crapping themselves they were determined inside, decided to go outside and get determined inside again
I'll be buying some paint for them to put their own target on their backs.

[CanPayButWouldRatherNot]

at least all the players on here have had a dry run in helping newbies with questions so there shouldn't be any further questions in feb/march 2021 !

[tinopener]

What a complete disaster government is at the moment.

You should have been born into a different reality, where disasters don't happen. Boo to disasters, I say.

[jammer]

And they can't just open another company and start again either....

What a complete disaster government is at the moment.

[northernladuk]

My CEST came back outside, my client says Im outside but the end client says I'm inside (appeal has been submitted with justifications) If they stick to inside I can only think to leave is the only option which is a shame as I enjoy working there. Its all project work on 12 week contracts. If the project goes beyond the 12 weeks I request a new one which it invariably does but they can fire my PSC at any point.... What to do???

I must admit I don't really know. The situation is so complex at the moment and christ knows what is going to happen to the job market now. Tough one.

Whatever you do I wouldn't be too quick to carry on outside as I am sure someone will come along and suggest. But that's IMHO just reading snippets on here.

[OnlyWayIsUp]

Because this has only been postponed. We've mused inside outside were low hanging fruit before. Now there is an extra year on the tax they can get back. Once they investigate, or look at the data they already have it will become clear.

An SDS might not exist in law but it is clear indication of how the client sees the role. If the SDS say no RoS and they want D&C then only a complete idiot would try and pass the role off as outside.

My CEST came back outside, my client says Im outside but the end client says I'm inside (appeal has been submitted with justifications) If they stick to inside I can only think to leave is the only option which is a shame as I enjoy working there. Its all project work on 12 week contracts. If the project goes beyond the 12 weeks I request a new one which it invariably does but they can fire my PSC at any point.... What to do???

[creativity]

Because this has only been postponed. We've mused inside outside were low hanging fruit before. Now there is an extra year on the tax they can get back. Once they investigate, or look at the data they already have it will become clear.

An SDS might not exist in law but it is clear indication of how the client sees the role. If the SDS say no RoS and they want D&C then only a complete idiot would try and pass the role off as outside.

I think you are a little confused, we are talking about deemed inside than outside after appeal. Nothing in that for HMRC to hang their hat on I'm afraid.
Besides it's all a mute point until the legislation comes into affect. Unless you really believe HMRC are going to force companies to hand over data on everyone deemed inside then investigate where all those PSC are now and investigate each in their own merit? That would take an army of staff. Not to mention the ambiguities in implementation and incorrect blanket assessments.

Let me tell how you how it will be done; by algorithms and data. Which wont be available (data) until legislation passes.

So now there is time for all those who are inside and outside to align themselves correctly for a smooth transition next year (or sooner, shouldnt rule out an Autumn implementation).

I do agree with your disdain (which I can hear loudly) of those who are abusing the existing legislation, but there are fewer now and those that continue will be swept up.

[northernladuk]

How would the HMRC know this chain of events? If it went inside SDS to appeal to outside SDS surely thats it sorted with that client. Anyway isn't it academic now? Surely no SDS are worth the paper?

Because this has only been postponed. We've mused inside outside were low hanging fruit before. Now there is an extra year on the tax they can get back. Once they investigate, or look at the data they already have it will become clear.

An SDS might not exist in law but it is clear indication of how the client sees the role. If the SDS say no RoS and they want D&C then only a complete idiot would try and pass the role off as outside.