Reply to: Repeal IR35 legislation in Public Sector and proposed Private Sector rollout.

[Allister]

Energy Voice

[QUOTE=CloudyTech;2649611]Dear all,

I’ve made a petition – will you sign it?

Click this link to sign the petition:

Support Nigel Scragg’s petition - Petitions

My petition:

Repeal IR35 legislation in Public Sector and proposed Private Sector rollout.

Freelance workers and contractors have been treated unfairly by this ill conceived legislation since it's conception. It has been incorrectly used to investigate and prosecute many hardworking self employed business owners striving to be successful in today's world. IR35 is anti-business!

This is legislation that encourages envy because of supposed benefits to being self employed by some who are not self-employed themselves. Why should a self-employed person working under IR35 be treated the same as an employee regarding taxation? The self-employed under IR35 are not entitled to paid holiday or sickness and by implication have no job security. The HMRC make more money from VAT, Corporation Tax, Income Tax and Dividend Tax than from PAYE. IR35 is about discouraging strivers!
________________________________________


Hi Nigel,

I'm from Energy Voice, an oil and gas news website based in Aberdeen. I'm keen to discuss to discuss your petition more if you're open to doing so?

<mod snip Nigel can find you on google if he want to chat>

Please drop me a line

Thanks,

Allister

[NeedTheSunshine]

Expecting the masses to feel worried about IR35 and the rest is delusion in it's highest form; the average guy in the call centre couldn't give a flying fig about us and how we are hard-done to because instead of taking home £90k a year we now only get £72k because of this legislation.

The only more deluded suggestion I've ever heard was when the Barrister's thought that going on strike would make the public feel sorry for them...

This - masses couldn't care less

[oilboil]

Expecting the masses to feel worried about IR35 and the rest is delusion in it's highest form; the average guy in the call centre couldn't give a flying fig about us and how we are hard-done to because instead of taking home £90k a year we now only get £72k because of this legislation.

The only more deluded suggestion I've ever heard was when the Barrister's thought that going on strike would make the public feel sorry for them...

[WordIsBond]

"If only we had a high-powered lobbying organisation to represent us "

there are those who claim to be, but are beginning to demonstrate that they have their own agendas. Claims are also made that influence is being exerted, but without any tangible evidence to support this claim.

My point is that if there were any such group, they should be looking to extract commitments now when candidates are desperately looking for support.

I suppose if there is no such group doing so, individual contractors in the constituencies of Tory MPs could be asking their MP to ask candidates for their view on IR35.

But I can't imagine why any group that claims to represent contractors wouldn't be pursuing this with people like Boris and Dominic and Esther, with anyone who is saying no-deal should be kept on the table. If no-deal happens, some businesses are going to need contractors to help them respond. Whether or not one thinks no-deal is folly, it is certainly folly to destroy the flexible work-force at the same time, in pursuit of a few quid extra tax (which may not even materialise).

[JohntheBike]

Not necessarily. If only we had a high-powered lobbying organisation to represent us who would pressure candidates for high office (such as PM) during the time when they actually are looking for support (such as during a leadership contest) to commit to certain things. Such as:

1. A serious review of IR35 to evaluate whether it is fit for purpose or whether a simpler, clearer approach would work.
2. Pending that, a suspension of off-payroll reforms until HMRC can actually prove that they can make CEST reflect actual case law.
3. In any event, a suspension of off-payroll reforms until at least 2021 to ensure that the flexible workforce is not hampered or destroyed until Brexit (and clients' response to it) is bedded in.

The last, at least, should be something that any worthwhile lobbyist should be able to extract from someone who is advocating no-deal as a reasonable outcome of Brexit. Any pro-Brexiter, though, who wants the UK to go it alone should be philosophically in tune with encouraging contractors to go it alone, rather than punishing them. If only there were a lobbying organisation....

As for the petition, the real unfairness is not that employees get employment rights and we don't. We're generally paid more in lieu of employment rights. The real unfairness is that they get employment rights as a tax-free benefit, and IR35 forces us to pay tax on everything.

"If only we had a high-powered lobbying organisation to represent us "

there are those who claim to be, but are beginning to demonstrate that they have their own agendas. Claims are also made that influence is being exerted, but without any tangible evidence to support this claim.

"We're generally paid more in lieu of employment rights."

well I'm not so convinced of that these days. Some successful industries, e.g. the petro chemical and automotive industries, are paying well. £6000 nett per month is quite common for employees in the automotive industry. I also personally know of an ex council employee who enjoys a pension of £6000+ per month. I've never grossed such a figure.

"The real unfairness is that they get employment rights as a tax-free benefit, and IR35 forces us to pay tax on everything"

good point. So the nett financial benefit could be said to negated to the point whereby contracting isn't as lucrative as HMG think it is. However, the loss of security isn't factored in.

[WordIsBond]

The only thing that can change HMRC is the government. Government want to maximise tax revenue. At any cost.

So it requires revolution.

Not necessarily. If only we had a high-powered lobbying organisation to represent us who would pressure candidates for high office (such as PM) during the time when they actually are looking for support (such as during a leadership contest) to commit to certain things. Such as:

1. A serious review of IR35 to evaluate whether it is fit for purpose or whether a simpler, clearer approach would work.
2. Pending that, a suspension of off-payroll reforms until HMRC can actually prove that they can make CEST reflect actual case law.
3. In any event, a suspension of off-payroll reforms until at least 2021 to ensure that the flexible workforce is not hampered or destroyed until Brexit (and clients' response to it) is bedded in.

The last, at least, should be something that any worthwhile lobbyist should be able to extract from someone who is advocating no-deal as a reasonable outcome of Brexit. Any pro-Brexiter, though, who wants the UK to go it alone should be philosophically in tune with encouraging contractors to go it alone, rather than punishing them. If only there were a lobbying organisation....

As for the petition, the real unfairness is not that employees get employment rights and we don't. We're generally paid more in lieu of employment rights. The real unfairness is that they get employment rights as a tax-free benefit, and IR35 forces us to pay tax on everything.

[JohntheBike]

But by losing you proved that you weren't a target.


Which is exactly why I'm educating them you moron.

And if you flapping about is what you call personally attacking IR35 then we are screwed.

"But by losing you proved that you weren't a target"

exactly, I'd glad your are now enlightened. So by proving that as a BOS with no ROS, I wasn't an employee of my client, others could do the same and have done so.

"moron"

you lose the argument by resorting to abuse.

"And if you flapping about is what you call personally attacking IR35 then we are screwed"

I would beg to differ. Using the ET/EAT route is a very valid way of countering IR35 and now eventually some representative organisations are beginning to understand this. Better late than never.

edit
and as far as influencing clients is concerned, when IR35 was announced, Hewlett Packard quickly declared there would be no changes to terms and conditions for its contractors. However, as a result of my case and that of another colleague, they quickly moved to strengthening their position in relation to contractual provisions, thus also strengthening the position of their contractors with regards to IR35.

[northernladuk]

"Outside contractor manages to argue he's inside"

that's a great leap of assumption. I was a BOS with no ROS and thus a target for IR35. The EAT determined that I wasn't an employee of my client. So exactly opposite to what you have assumed.

But by losing you proved that you weren't a target.

Clients have their own agendas which might not necessarily concur with ours. So, you've done nothing directly yourself to attack IR35 then.

Which is exactly why I'm educating them you moron.

And if you flapping about is what you call personally attacking IR35 then we are screwed.

[JohntheBike]

With factual explanations why, based on how the petitions work.


Outside contractor manages to argue he's inside would set a precedent for all future cases giving HMRC the arguments they needed. Thankfully, as you say, you lost.


I've spent a lot of time guiding my clients through the changes when I was in public sector and I'm currently doing the same with my current client. Others can attack the legislation, I'm trying to educate my client instead.

"Outside contractor manages to argue he's inside"

that's a great leap of assumption. I was a BOS with no ROS and thus a target for IR35. The EAT determined that I wasn't an employee of my client. So exactly opposite to what you have assumed.

Given the political skulduggery surrounding my case, it was entirely clear to me that HMG wanted me to lose, which suited my purposes exactly. I was a BOS with no ROS and I was judged not an employee of my client. Thus driving a horse and cart through the IR35 ideology.

"I've spent a lot of time guiding my clients through the changes when I was in public sector and I'm currently doing the same with my current client. Others can attack the legislation, I'm trying to educate my client instead"

Clients have their own agendas which might not necessarily concur with ours. So, you've done nothing directly yourself to attack IR35 then.

[northernladuk]

"At least 3 others have clearly stated why petitions are worthless".

only 3? small potatoes!

With factual explanations why, based on how the petitions work.

"nearly shafted contracting by trying giving the Gov a win"

que?

In what way do you reckon that winning or losing an EAT case would give HMG a win? It defeated HMRC in so far as their proposed investigation of me under IR35 was abandoned. This in my mind ably demonstrates that they couldn't risk challenging me in the Tax Commissioners Court, and demonstrates the fallacy that you can be judged an employee for tax purposes but not employee benefits. There were also other issues which re-inforce my opinion, which can't be published here.

Outside contractor manages to argue he's inside would set a precedent for all future cases giving HMRC the arguments they needed. Thankfully, as you say, you lost.

I ask again, what have you done personally to attack IR35

I've spent a lot of time guiding my clients through the changes when I was in public sector and I'm currently doing the same with my current client. Others can attack the legislation, I'm trying to educate my client instead.

[JohntheBike]

It's not just my opinion. At least 3 others have clearly stated why petitions are worthless.

How do you think a petition sends a message? Even if the message was decently worded, which so far none have, the only people that read the petition are the contractors already aware. No one else.

Funny you say what have I done to attack IR35 coming from the guy that nearly shafted contracting by trying giving the Gov a win that could have been referenced in every one of their cases.

"At least 3 others have clearly stated why petitions are worthless".

only 3? small potatoes!


"nearly shafted contracting by trying giving the Gov a win"

que?

In what way do you reckon that winning or losing an EAT case would give HMG a win? It defeated HMRC in so far as their proposed investigation of me under IR35 was abandoned. This in my mind ably demonstrates that they couldn't risk challenging me in the Tax Commissioners Court, and demonstrates the fallacy that you can be judged an employee for tax purposes but not employee benefits. There were also other issues which re-inforce my opinion, which can't be published here.

I ask again, what have you done personally to attack IR35

[northernladuk]

you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. What have you done personally to attack IR35?

It's not just my opinion. At least 3 others have clearly stated why petitions are worthless.

How do you think a petition sends a message? Even if the message was decently worded, which so far none have, the only people that read the petition are the contractors already aware. No one else.

Funny you say what have I done to attack IR35 coming from the guy that nearly shafted contracting by trying giving the Gov a win that could have been referenced in every one of their cases.

[JohntheBike]

You just don't get it at all do you.

you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. What have you done personally to attack IR35?

[northernladuk]

Perhaps these petitions are one way the contracting environment can keep sending the message.

You just don't get it at all do you.

[JohntheBike]

Petitions might help if there is an argument over which colour to paint the Scouts hut.

But in terms of repealing the above, there is already much evidence to show the HMRC are not listening, reading, or understanding. So, it is somewhat doubtful that a little petition will even be noticed, much less read, and certainly not actioned upon.

granted, but as I've said, the use of the term "Personal Service Company" has been accepted by common use, as has IR35 for "the Intermediaries Regulations". Perhaps these petitions are one way the contracting environment can keep sending the message.