Reply to: Loan charge - HMRC update

[takethebus]

Yes same. I called and asked, was advised that my name was noted against "SP Management" in a single year. Never had a loan, never been in any scheme. Was advised to send an email to clarify so have done just that, if I don't hear back I think I'll send a recorded letter to ensure proper comms chain can be demonstrated.

Well it turns out I have now received an email response from HMRC as to why I received a loan charge letter, they acknowledged it was sent to me in error and and the matter is now closed. I’m relieved as I knew I hadn’t been in any schemes but still causes anxiety even for the short time since I had the letter I can’t imagine what some of you are going through and have done for years


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

[ToHaLe]

Go and get advice if you are that stressed.

A few hundred pounds spent to assuage your stress is worth it.

I attempted to send a private message here.
Apologies to other folks for coming public on the forum on this, but as I am new, I do not know if you received it.

If so, please kindly reply privately,
If you haven't received it, then I am kindly requesting forum admins to enable private messaging for me.

Thanks, and apologies to all for the tangent in conversation...

[Highland]

If you didn't ever operate through SP Management then it's fine and a mistake. Definitely send everything in writing by recorded delivery and get HMRC to confirm anything they say on the telephone in writing. If you did at any time operated through SP Management then you are on their loan scheme user list.

100% never, ever, operated through them (or anyone else), had a loan from them (or anyone else) or even heard the name SP Management until I opened the brown envelope and phoned the helpline number.

Think I'll draft the letter now!!

[NeedTheSunshine]

*checks how to close account*

For the year in question I had no employment and it's recent so have ready access to bank statements etc so easy for me to demonstrate if needed. Made my heart skip though when I started to read the letter, even though I know I never used a scheme!

If you didn't ever operate through SP Management then it's fine and a mistake. Definitely send everything in writing by recorded delivery and get HMRC to confirm anything they say on the telephone in writing. If you did at any time operated through SP Management then you are on their loan scheme user list.

[Highland]

I think HMRC have a "naughty list".

Posting on this forum will get you on the list.

*checks how to close account*

For the year in question I had no employment and it's recent so have ready access to bank statements etc so easy for me to demonstrate if needed. Made my heart skip though when I started to read the letter, even though I know I never used a scheme!

[DealorNoDeal]

I think HMRC have a "naughty list".

Posting on this forum will get you on the list.

[Highland]

I just received on of these as you have not agreed a settlement generic letters....Thing is i have never had or been entered into a loan scheme in my 5 years of contracting or had any correspondence from HMRC previously are they that incompetent?!


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

Yes same. I called and asked, was advised that my name was noted against "SP Management" in a single year. Never had a loan, never been in any scheme. Was advised to send an email to clarify so have done just that, if I don't hear back I think I'll send a recorded letter to ensure proper comms chain can be demonstrated.

[NeedTheSunshine]

I just received on of these as you have not agreed a settlement generic letters....Thing is i have never had or been entered into a loan scheme in my 5 years of contracting or had any correspondence from HMRC previously are they that incompetent?!


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

Call them and ask. Everyone I know that has received the generic letter was using a loan scheme at some point in time. Your name is on the list if you got that letter. If you are sure you never used one best to get it cleared up and confirmed in writing.

[takethebus]

I just received on of these as you have not agreed a settlement generic letters....Thing is i have never had or been entered into a loan scheme in my 5 years of contracting or had any correspondence from HMRC previously are they that incompetent?!


Sent from my iPhone using Contractor UK Forum

[webberg]

I think I've said before that nobody knew what it meant in 2010 and probably nobody does now either.

That didn't stop a lot of promoters telling you a few days after that publication that nothing had changed and that everything could carry on as before (only to change in March 2011).

These promoters were either prescient seers of remarkable ability, had tax geniuses in their midst or were terrified that the gravy train would stop and were prepared to be less than honest.

I'll let you choose which.

[RickG]

Yes it was.

By that time the Dawn Primarolo statement made whilst she was at Treasury to the effect that Government would announce legislation which would have immediate (or even retrospective) effect to correct tax wrongs was accepted practice.

It was practice to announce that a law would be written that would be effective from xx/xx/xxxx and that had the power of law.

In this case we had the added advantage of draft law. A draft that hardly changed.

I don't want to be pedantic or pick a fight here and you may with some justification say that draft legislation is not law: that you were not personally aware of the law until later: that HMRC did not make it obvious that this was their view.

All of those arguments might be deployed, but they are in the "extremely difficult" category in terms of winning the argument that the law and therefore HMRC's general view and specific law was not in circulation from that date.

As I said, I have no idea what the agenda of the APPG is. I expect to be better informed next week.

Just don't cling to a false hope. Be realistic please.

I think all very valid points.

However, there's many discrepancies about employer and employee schemes post Dec 2010 - and many of the soundbites from HMRC conflate the two.

On top of which, SAM himself says in his report that the law did not actually become clear until 2015, which is when HMRC changed their position (and therefore, by definition, could not have "always been clear" - or certainly not in 2010):

2.22 HMRC began to have success in their appeal in 2015 against the earlier
decisions in favour of Rangers Football Club. The Inner House of the Court of
Session (equivalent to the English Court of Appeal) found in HMRC’s favour
in 2015. The case was finally decided in HMRC’s favour by the Supreme
Court in 2017.9 The decision held unanimously that the contributions into
the trust were employment income, with a PAYE liability for both income tax
and NICs falling on the employer. This followed a change in HMRC’s
argument at the Court of Session, that PAYE was due upon payments by the
employer into an EBT – meaning that the circumstances in which the tax
liability could be transferred from the employer to individua scheme users
was narrower than under HMRC’s previous argument which had not been
accepted by the FTT or UT. The Supreme Court also held that two earlier
cases (Dextra and Sempra), had been wrongly decided by the lower
tribunals.

[NeedTheSunshine]

ages ago.

Then you know that HMRC don't play fair. Join in with the campaigning and take advice on your own situation.

[webberg]

I believe when draft legislation was introduced, according to this: https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/...d-remuneration

Yes it was.

By that time the Dawn Primarolo statement made whilst she was at Treasury to the effect that Government would announce legislation which would have immediate (or even retrospective) effect to correct tax wrongs was accepted practice.

It was practice to announce that a law would be written that would be effective from xx/xx/xxxx and that had the power of law.

In this case we had the added advantage of draft law. A draft that hardly changed.

I don't want to be pedantic or pick a fight here and you may with some justification say that draft legislation is not law: that you were not personally aware of the law until later: that HMRC did not make it obvious that this was their view.

All of those arguments might be deployed, but they are in the "extremely difficult" category in terms of winning the argument that the law and therefore HMRC's general view and specific law was not in circulation from that date.

As I said, I have no idea what the agenda of the APPG is. I expect to be better informed next week.

Just don't cling to a false hope. Be realistic please.

[lowpaidworker]

HMRC don't play fair. Once you accept this you can move on and start taking action. Have you joined LCAG?

ages ago.

[NeedTheSunshine]

OK so I respect your opinion. However I am siding with David Davies on this. I beleive his comments represent the thousands of people caught up inthe mess. Whilst HMRC might well publish an update on their own website or in a tax journal there is no logical way I would ever follow these postings/annoucements.

I guess this is the point where maybe the Tax advisors/Scheme Promotors became greedy and gambled. Ideally my Umbrella firm would have said we are closing down and you need to look elsewhere. Instead they sent letters asking to sign new employment and agreements. They wanted to protect their revenues no doubt.

However I maintain the first time HMRC started to write to me was late 2014 and early 2015 ... post Rangers. Until then I submitted many tax returns an heard nothing back. Seems like both the Tax Advisors/Scheme Promotors and HMRC were all gambling on the SC Rangers outcome.

I dont beleve that is fair is on the end user.

HMRC don't play fair. Once you accept this you can move on and start taking action. Have you joined LCAG?