Reply to: Query-sorry if answered elsewhere but don't know where to look

[BrilloPad]

I'm not in any way saying LCAG are unclear or ambiguous, just that what they do is sometimes presented that way.

Sometimes things have to be dumbed down for the media.....

[webberg]

I should clarify that the view we get of "an LCAG win is problem over" is not universal and arises mainly from those who are new to this scene.

(Yes we still get calls saying they've only just heard).

The point is that those of us here with some experience, need to be careful in presenting information in context so that new users are not sent off in the wrong direction.

I'm not in any way saying LCAG are unclear or ambiguous, just that what they do is sometimes presented that way.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Probably not anyone within LCAG then. Within LCAG it has been repeated ad nauseam that the LC is the target and that other tax issues are unaffected. Course people don't always listen.

Yes, LCAG have always been clear about their goal.

The Loan Charge won't disappear tomorrow (11th April). The debate is about suspending the Loan Charge whilst an independent review takes place.

[dammit chloe]

OK. I understand that now.

However to equate LCAG's present activity (removing the loan charge) with the situation you describe, may create confusion in the minds of newer entrants to this nightmare.

If LCAG were to achieve their aim, the potential NI refund situation would not be any better or worse than it is now.

Perhaps LCAG has something in mind as a next step which may enhance your chances, but until we see what that might be, there is no direct read across from what they are doing to your situation (unless I'm missing the obvious).

My clarification post was therefore to inform new joiners that the actions of LCAG - admirable as they are - will not see an end to the enquiries, demands, APNs, pressure tactics of HMRC.

I think it's an important message and from conversations I have with people, there is an expectation that an LCAG win is the end of the whole process.

Sadly it's not and I think those of us with some experience here have an obligation to put these issues into context.

Probably not anyone within LCAG then. Within LCAG it has been repeated ad nauseam that the LC is the target and that other tax issues are unaffected. Course people don't always listen.

[webberg]

I have personal and limited company liabilities to settle, so the tax bill is greater than many others using loan schemes. So as an example, I would like to hope one day it was proven the scheme promoter was liable for my NI (as I received the loan from them, not my limited company) and therefore I could be reimbursed in some way as I've had to pay it as part of my settlement.

I can only be 99.999% sure it won't happen. So here I am playing ball with HMRC, clinging to that 0.001%.

OK. I understand that now.

However to equate LCAG's present activity (removing the loan charge) with the situation you describe, may create confusion in the minds of newer entrants to this nightmare.

If LCAG were to achieve their aim, the potential NI refund situation would not be any better or worse than it is now.

Perhaps LCAG has something in mind as a next step which may enhance your chances, but until we see what that might be, there is no direct read across from what they are doing to your situation (unless I'm missing the obvious).

My clarification post was therefore to inform new joiners that the actions of LCAG - admirable as they are - will not see an end to the enquiries, demands, APNs, pressure tactics of HMRC.

I think it's an important message and from conversations I have with people, there is an expectation that an LCAG win is the end of the whole process.

Sadly it's not and I think those of us with some experience here have an obligation to put these issues into context.

[here4beer]

So, I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "claiming something back"?

I have personal and limited company liabilities to settle, so the tax bill is greater than many others using loan schemes. So as an example, I would like to hope one day it was proven the scheme promoter was liable for my NI (as I received the loan from them, not my limited company) and therefore I could be reimbursed in some way as I've had to pay it as part of my settlement.

I can only be 99.999% sure it won't happen. So here I am playing ball with HMRC, clinging to that 0.001%.

[webberg]

ie, settlement is settlement, but i hope one day if LCAG is successful I can try to clam something back.

And therein lies the issue that I was trying to clarify,

LCAG have done a great job and let's "hope" that they are successful and the loan charge disappears tomorrow (11th April 2019).

If so, HMRC will turn their attention to all those years that are open, i.e. have an enquiry that has not been settled.

(We "hope" that years with no such enquiry are forever closed but who knows what tricks might be up HMRC's sleeve?).

Nobody has yet paid anything for a closed year UNLESS they have settled.

If they have settled, then whether the loan charge survives or not, is irrelevant. You have settled and you are paying HMRC.

If you have not settled and not paid HMRC anything for closed or open years, you have a potential liability that will be known once the dust settles on litigation.

The loan charge is not due until January 2020.

So, I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "claiming something back"?

[here4beer]

Not sure I see many difference to what people have been saying TBH

I pipe up with the word "hope" quite a lot, as that's all I have left. It might confuse those in a panic who are skim reading.

ie, settlement is settlement, but i hope one day if LCAG is successful I can try to clam something back.

[dammit chloe]

Not sure I see many difference to what people have been saying TBH

[webberg]

This thread unfortunately includes a number of myths and hearsay that create a fog of misunderstanding in this space and prevent decisions being made in based on reality. I'll do my best to put my view of the situation.

Settlement is settlement. Once you have signed the contract and agreed a payment plan, you are committed. Interrupting the payment plan for any reason short of something extraordinary, will bring out an immediate demand for any amount not already paid. Settlement exempts you from the loan charge. Settlement also means that any subsequent victory or defeat in Court for a scheme is irrelevant as your settlement will not be adjusted for it.

The loan charge applies if you have not settled or repaid the loans. It is however an interim charge. By that I mean it taxed anything not settled but eventually, when the years under enquiry are finally agreed with HMRC, (as they have to be despite many here denying that) there is a complex dance around setting off tax paid under the loan charge and tax due from the year the loan was paid. The ultimate aim is that the loan charge will apply to loans from those years in which no enquiry was made. (A closed year).

Tax due in the year the loan was made will have to be agreed in due course. That will be by agreement or because a Judge orders it so.

We are aware of a number of judicial reviews claiming to be moving against the loan charge. Whether they do and what effect they may have is uncertain. At best the loan charge may disappear. That will mean that the enquiries against the open years will continue.

Litigation against HMRC's view of liability in open years is underway. We understand that the first case will arrive in FTT next month. That will be the start of a long process.

If you have outstanding loans and have not settled, you are obliged to make a declaration of these to HMRC before 30th September. Reporting of loans by trusts and lenders does not exempt you from that obligation.

[Yates1992]

It's the trusts that will disclose and they, at least those that can be reached by HMRC, have to disclose by 30 September I think. Those who don't disclose may get away with it but could also find themselves in bigger trouble down the line.

I only found out about this LAW on friday when Knox house trust sent out the latest letter. I am best trying to contract HMRC now or wait for Knox house to declare who was on the scheme? I stopped the scheme back in 2017

[here4beer]

It's the trusts that will disclose and they, at least those that can be reached by HMRC, have to disclose by 30 September I think. Those who don't disclose may get away with it but could also find themselves in bigger trouble down the line.

Some Trusts are moving to countries where no public records are kept. So yes I guess that keeps them safe for a bit longer...

Maybe in future HMRC approach the Trusts and negotiate a deal where the Trust gets let off lightly - if they hand over all their loan recipients. Who knows.. Certainly not I, which is why I want it all to disappear.

[dammit chloe]

Perhaps it will become a real thing, but it will definitely need a group to come together. One for the future.

Failing to disclose the loans on SATRs is a whole other issue. Promoters are self interested so I assume that it's not inconceivable that at some point when shutting up shop they will throw their clients under the bus.

It's the trusts that will disclose and they, at least those that can be reached by HMRC, have to disclose by 30 September I think. Those who don't disclose may get away with it but could also find themselves in bigger trouble down the line.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Settlement is settlement, and there is no come back for me. I understand that. I'm saying I "hope" it becomes a real thing, like the PPI debacle or something similar.

Not all are, you're correct. However I'd say active scheme members who are still contributing today, and failing to disclose the loans on their SATR are lying/hiding.

Perhaps it will become a real thing, but it will definitely need a group to come together. One for the future.

Failing to disclose the loans on SATRs is a whole other issue. Promoters are self interested so I assume that it's not inconceivable that at some point when shutting up shop they will throw their clients under the bus.

[here4beer]

Have you joined LCAG? Or Big Group? It's been said here before, and apologies if you have joined them or some other group, but relying on others to fight your battles without contributing isn't going to help you.

As I understand it, LCAG are fighting the Loan Charge only. Big Group are concerned with the underlying tax issues (regardless of whether the Loan Charge goes away, although that will help some of their clients). No group that I know of have a goal of undoing agreed settlements, although I am happy to be corrected. As I have said previously, when you sign the settlement contract it becomes contract law.

Those who have chosen not to settle aren't lying and hiding - they have chosen to not to settle. It's not obligatory to settle with HMRC. It's a choice - dependent on your personal circumstances and/or appetite for risk I suppose. I don't criticise anyone who chose to settle - there are many compelling reasons to do so. But it's equally valid not to settle.

Settlement is settlement, and there is no come back for me. I understand that. I'm saying I "hope" it becomes a real thing, like the PPI debacle or something similar.

Not all are, you're correct. However I'd say active scheme members who are still contributing today, and failing to disclose the loans on their SATR are lying/hiding.