Reply to: Kinsella/Keypay Solutions

[RJM08]

Keypay Also - But just got the letter.

Hi,

Recently got a letter about a Contractor Loan. Not been contacted before and all a bit surprised as my employment with keypay Solutions was ten years ago. I've found some tax records inc a P11D that the loan was repaid. Just requested information from HMRC as to what their enquiry is about, as the letter was so vague.

Not looking forward to spending the next few months trawling forums, joining action groups and wasting energy on this retrospective legislation which is ridiculous. HMRC should spend the time and effort getting tax laws simplified and watertight to help move the country forward post brexit.

PS My ex wife got my bank balance in the divorce 5 years ago, will they chase her for any money owed?

[webberg]

As mentioned above, the actual mechanism as papered and the real life movement of money may be tricky to reconcile.

It might be better not to speculate here given that HMRC use this resource as well.

[forkknife]

I as understand it, at a very high level, the Kinsella scheme paid employee loans during employment, then when you left the scheme you repaid the loans, then you're given an ex-employee loan. It would be this final ex-employee loan that you would now have a tax liability for...I think?

[ChimpMaster]

The kinsella loan repayment structure will be a difficult one to prove.

I have enough information on it to see where HMRC will be able to say that it was ineffective. I'm not going to spell those out here.

Suffice to say that the protection offered by the mechanism may not be as strong as you might have hoped.

I agree, very difficult to prove as per our previous PMs on the subject. I have not held out any hope of being able to prove anything to HMRC.

I have asked them to estimate my tax liability under settlement, given that I have no information to provide them.

[webberg]

The kinsella loan repayment structure will be a difficult one to prove.

I have enough information on it to see where HMRC will be able to say that it was ineffective. I'm not going to spell those out here.

Suffice to say that the protection offered by the mechanism may not be as strong as you might have hoped.

[ChimpMaster]

Kinsella loans were repaid through a mechanism that I am not qualified to even try to explain. This happened once you left their employment. So there is no loan any more.

The Trust no longer has any information on loans that are older than 7 years.

The employer liquidated long ago and the firm that helped to pay off the loans liquidated in 2011.

So there is no one left to contact and no information available. And there is no loan outstanding.

Most likely you won't have any open enquiries from HMRC either and of course are now beyond the enquiry window of 6 years.

But in HMRC's view you will very likely still be liable to an income tax charge.

[webberg]

I don't think contacting HMRC can be considered burying my head in the sand, can it ?

Neither do I understand why I'm recommended to contact these advisors when the process to settle tax affairs seems relatively straightforward?
My only question here is :-

If the loans are not in fact loans, but DR, what process must be followed to write off / release the loans once the tax has been settled on the DR?

I think you've just demonstrated why you should speak with an adviser.

The loans are real loans. This is what the Supreme Court has said.

Money due to you from the employer is basically everything the end client was invoiced, (less fees perhaps).

It is taxable as your remuneration.

You have then put money into trust or with a lender.

You have borrowed that money back.

So you are taxable on the remuneration AND you have a loan.

[tomtastic]

I am sorry to say but I am sure burying your head in the sands is not a good idea.
I would suggest you talk to both advisers.

I don't think contacting HMRC can be considered burying my head in the sand, can it ?

Neither do I understand why I'm recommended to contact these advisors when the process to settle tax affairs seems relatively straightforward?
My only question here is :-

If the loans are not in fact loans, but DR, what process must be followed to write off / release the loans once the tax has been settled on the DR?

[me206et]

OK, well as I've heard nothing regarding loan repayments, I'm going to email a reply to the cl.resolution team at HMRC to ask for their estimate as I don't keep (and don't believe I'm legally obliged to) financial records going back that far.

No idea how to contact the loan/trust, nor how to tell them that HMRC thinks they weren't loans, so trust should cancel/release them?!

I am sorry to say but I am sure burying your head in the sands is not a good idea.
I would suggest you talk to both advisers.

[webberg]

OK, well as I've heard nothing regarding loan repayments, I'm going to email a reply to the cl.resolution team at HMRC to ask for their estimate as I don't keep (and don't believe I'm legally obliged to) financial records going back that far.

No idea how to contact the loan/trust, nor how to tell them that HMRC thinks they weren't loans, so trust should cancel/release them?!

You've conflated tax and loans and trusts here and I fear that your understanding is still a little confused.

You need to speak with an adviser.

Google WTT Consulting or Phil Manley at DSW. Then take your pick or speak to both.

[tomtastic]

Yes.

The statute of limitations starts only when the lender executes his right to repayment.

If he does that, does not get paid, takes no action to recover, then after 6 years, the lender loses the right to repayment.

OK, well as I've heard nothing regarding loan repayments, I'm going to email a reply to the cl.resolution team at HMRC to ask for their estimate as I don't keep (and don't believe I'm legally obliged to) financial records going back that far.

No idea how to contact the loan/trust, nor how to tell them that HMRC thinks they weren't loans, so trust should cancel/release them?!

[webberg]

Is a loan / debt left unacknowledged for over 6 and half years even considered legally active at this point?

Yes.

The statute of limitations starts only when the lender executes his right to repayment.

If he does that, does not get paid, takes no action to recover, then after 6 years, the lender loses the right to repayment.

[tomtastic]

Is a loan / debt left unacknowledged for over 6 and half years even considered legally active at this point?

[webberg]

I have no records going beyond 7+ years, how should I estimate my liability even if it wasn't statute barred by now, or are we at the mercy of HMRC estimating things for us.... ?

In reaching any estimate, HMRC has to show that they have been reasonable and just.

Normally, in this scenario, it will be a multiple of salary and be based on people in similar or the same schemes.

You can challenge that and ask to see their evidence for the estimate.

You can supply counter arguments, perhaps based on bank statements, calculations of day rate, days worked or out of work, lifestyle etc.

It is true that HMRC is usually reluctant to change a number that they feel is just and reasonable and in such situations you may need to go to a Tribunal to argue your case. That is an informal process and nothing to be scared of if you have a decent case.

[tomtastic]

I have no records going beyond 7+ years, how should I estimate my liability even if it wasn't statute barred by now, or are we at the mercy of HMRC estimating things for us.... ?