Reply to: Finance (No.2) Bill - Have your say [URGENT]

[foobar]

Democracy fail

Public Bill Committee members complaining they did not have enough time to review the public submissions! Due process has been shot to pieces. This is obscene!

"One of the report’s key suggestions, which I have been pursuing in this House, and will continue to, even if I do not win today, is about the fact that the Finance Bill Committee does not take evidence. We have been told that that is due to lack of time, and that scrutiny of the Finance Bill needs to be curtailed and completed in a very short period. However, measures in the Finance Bill are very technical, and we have a short time in Committee. If we added just one extra day, we could take evidence."

"Some of the written evidence submitted to the Committee —it was made available very late, I must say; it came yesterday at around 4 pm, which gives us very little time to read a huge amount of evidence—suggested that there are things that need to be changed and that people would like to see tweaked. However, without having oral evidence and being able to interrogate people for it, it is very difficult to weigh up the evidence in the context of the Bill."

"I would go so far as to bet that all Committee members have not read all the written evidence that has been provided. I bet that they have not had time, given that the customs Bill is running at the same time, and the majority of us who are Front-Benching for that Bill are also Front-Benching for today’s Bill."

Kudos to Alison Thewliss, Kirsty Blackman, Peter Dowd, and Dan Carden for speaking up.

[LandRover]

Not really sure what point you are making here to be honest.

I think the fact the Supreme Court ruling concerning Rangers case, which points the liability at the Employer is the thought behind the previous post. The fact that HMG brought about 2019LC, to help HMRC cover up their utter complicity in the vast expansion of Tax Avoidance Schemes over the last 20yrs, is a tough obstacle to overcome.

Many members of Big Group and Loan Charge Group are on twitter and focusing on bringing this appalling legislation's retrospective application to the attention of MPs, media and Finance Committee members.

Write & meet your MP.
Use social media like twitter & facebook and inform the wider public.

This not only affects IT contractors/freelancers, there's thousands, like locums, Doctors, Nurses who are affected and as more people become aware, then they need to speak out and fight back.

[allbutbankrupt]

How can you say this?
I would love it to be true, but everybody else seems to think HMRC have won with no contest!!!!

The Nudge Unit doesn't need any help.

[THISISWRONG]

DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! Nobody owes HMRC ANYTHING as clarified by the supreme court!

How can you say this?
I would love it to be true, but everybody else seems to think HMRC have won with no contest!!!!

[regron]

Not really sure what point you are making here to be honest.

[Realist]

All you are settling is the tax on the loan part. The loan itself still needs to be dealt with. Also, there is nothing stopping HMRC from continuing litigation on your scheme post the 2019 LC and if they win, they will come back for more interest.

If you don't deal with the loan, then there is a chance 'no matter how small' of the trustees calling it back in... do you really want that risk ? Also, if you do get the loan released / written off, there are IHT issues to deal with.

I would recommend you speak to a tax professional, lay out your personal circumstances and let them advise you fully of your options.

DON'T BE RIDICULOUS! Nobody owes HMRC ANYTHING as clarified by the supreme court! If the trust decides to call in the loan, they have to prove that they loaned you the money in the first place, which includes divulging the source of the funds.

HMRC's worst outcome is 100,000 or so non compliant, pissed off customers, giving them the righteous finger. Phantom taxes, fairytale debts, bogus charges and etheric interest MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Let them try to get blood from a stone, let them make fools of themselves, let them overstep the line just enough so that we can take back control and chop off their heads!

[regron]

I don't quite understand if the assessment amount is paid then its settled. Surely that is the point of settling? isnt it

All you are settling is the tax on the loan part. The loan itself still needs to be dealt with. Also, there is nothing stopping HMRC from continuing litigation on your scheme post the 2019 LC and if they win, they will come back for more interest.

If you don't deal with the loan, then there is a chance 'no matter how small' of the trustees calling it back in... do you really want that risk ? Also, if you do get the loan released / written off, there are IHT issues to deal with.

I would recommend you speak to a tax professional, lay out your personal circumstances and let them advise you fully of your options.

[Wildfire8]

But there would still be the issue of the loan itself to deal with.

I don't quite understand if the assessment amount is paid then its settled. Surely that is the point of settling? isnt it

[regron]

Yes.

In case you're not aware, there will be late payment interest in addition to the amounts quoted in the assessment.

But there would still be the issue of the loan itself to deal with.

[Loan Ranger]

I have been given an assessment for a particular year (11-12) which has been suspended on appeal. If I now want to pay would that be the end of it as far as 2019LC is concern?

Yes.

In case you're not aware, there will be late payment interest in addition to the amounts quoted in the assessment.

[Wildfire8]

HMRC won't accept that view. They will look at your tax returns for the years you used a scheme and will use a multiplier on your salary to come up with a wild guess of your loan amount. They will then raise a tax demand on you for that loan amount.

It's completely absurd, the extent to which this pantomime has degraded.

I have been given an assessment for a particular year (11-12) which has been suspended on appeal. If I now want to pay would that be the end of it as far as 2019LC is concern?

[ChimpMaster]

As long as there is a box for "I have no idea and no way of finding out".

WTF.

All my UK paperwork went south 15 years ago.
My UK bank account used when working closed 10 years.
ago.

So all I could declare is I know I used at least one scheme.

For an unknown period and an unknown amount.

HMRC won't accept that view. They will look at your tax returns for the years you used a scheme and will use a multiplier on your salary to come up with a wild guess of your loan amount. They will then raise a tax demand on you for that loan amount.

It's completely absurd, the extent to which this pantomime has degraded.

[me206et]

However, not to be missed also in Schedule 11;Part 4;36(2) -> Seems you have 10 days from 06 Apr 2019 for BOTH the trustee and yourself to provide the loan information to HMRC. I suggest people do not leave this to the last minute trying to find 20 year old documents.

Failure to comply with above results in eye watering penalties detailed in Schedule 17;Paragraph 44 (1),(2) and(3):
- £5,000 for each scheme;
- Rises to £10,000 for multiple failures to comply;
- The penalty will be simply treated as tax charged.
- The penalty is not appealable and due within 30days.

As long as there is a box for "I have no idea and no way of finding out".

WTF.

All my UK paperwork went south 15 years ago.
My UK bank account used when working closed 10 years.
ago.

So all I could declare is I know I used at least one scheme.

For an unknown period and an unknown amount.

[foobar]

I have waded through the full bill here: https://publications.parliament.uk/p...0071/18071.pdf

Most will be interested in the retro cash grab at Schedule 11;Part 4;Paragraph 36(1)(c)

However, not to be missed also in Schedule 11;Part 4;36(2) -> Seems you have 10 days from 06 Apr 2019 for BOTH the trustee and yourself to provide the loan information to HMRC. I suggest people do not leave this to the last minute trying to find 20 year old documents.

Failure to comply with above results in eye watering penalties detailed in Schedule 17;Paragraph 44 (1),(2) and(3):
- £5,000 for each scheme;
- Rises to £10,000 for multiple failures to comply;
- The penalty will be simply treated as tax charged.
- The penalty is not appealable and due within 30 days.

Of particular interest in Schedule 17;Paragraph 48(2) - "Insufficient funds is not a reasonable excuse not to pay." I have no evidence of it but this part stinks of the Nudge Unit who have said quite openly the excuse of not paying needs removing.

[foobar]

Before the page is taken down, here are the indifferent members of the Public Bill Committee who ignored tax experts and turned their cheek to the cries of 40K of their compatriots that now face ruin:
Sir Roger Gale, Albert Owen
Colin Lee, Jyoti Chandola, Gail Bartlett
Blackman, Kirsty (Aberdeen North)
Burghart, Alex (Brentwood and Ongar)
Carden, Dan (Liverpool, Walton)
Chalk, Alex (Cheltenham)
Clark, Mr Simon (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)
Dodds, Anneliese (Oxford East)
Dowd, Peter (Bootle)
George, Ruth (High Peak)
Graham, Luke (Ochil and South Perthshire)
Kerr, Stephen (Stirling)
Lee, Ms Karen (Lincoln)
Maclean, Rachel (Redditch)
Philp, Chris (Croydon South)
Pidcock, Laura (North West Durham)
Rutley, David (Macclesfield)
Smith, Jeff (Manchester, Withington)
Stride, Mel (Central Devon)
Thewliss, Alison (Glasgow Central)
Whateley, Helen (Faversham and Mid Kent)