Just a heads up that Money Box (Radio 4) are covering this in the next 1/2 hr.

[GOT]

Some of us have been dealing with this for a number of years now.
Sanzar like most promoters registered their scheme for DOTAS and therefore everyone who employed them were disclosed to the HMRC at the time. When HMRC get their 2019 finance bill (well actually the government's) pass they will come calling for interest payments from you since 2008 (or as far back as 1999).

You are lucky not to have had an APN where you have 90 days to pay them anything they think you owe, usually with an unrealistic time to pay if ,as most people, you can't pay the amount immediately. You will have no choice, no innocent until proven guilty, and HMRC may well come back and ask for more as this is only a payment on account.

Your best bet is to join Big Group when it reopens in April as they have been very helpful and there are over 1000 members all in a similar (and most in a much worse) position to yourself.

[DotasScandal]

I've not heard a pip from HMRC since, apart from my accountants getting this letter more than seven years after filing the tax return.
Then I hear this story on Radio 4.

You are far (FAR!) from alone.
You have been groomed by HMRC, and now is harvest time:
A can of worms

[BrilloPad]

I'm new, hello world.

Last week my accountant got a letter from HMRC suggesting what advice they might give to their clients who are being investigated. It was in relation to "Serial Tax Avoidance Legislation: effective from 15 September 2016."

When my accountant asked which of their clients HMRC had in mind, their answer was... me.

The trouble with that is, I'm not being investigated - not so far as I know anyway - and I certainly haven't participated in serial tax avoidance.

The only tax scheme I've ever been involved in was a three month period in 2008/09. The scheme was run by Sanzar. I've tried to find the paperwork related to it but struggled. My recollection is that it involved loans, but (a) I've never had a loan statement and (b) the illustration rubbishes the competition for using loans and explains that there will be partnership income. So, maybe I got that wrong. Whatever, at the time, I disclosed everything via the tax return (with support of accountant). I didn't learn of the DOTAS reference until later but also sent that in as soon as I did.

I've not heard a pip from HMRC since, apart from my accountants getting this letter more than seven years after filing the tax return.

Then I hear this story on Radio 4.

Obviously the next step is we've asked HMRC what they're talking about.

In the mean-time though, does anyone know what the modus operandi is here? Any suggestions where to go to get help?

Thanks
Dozy

This may well be unrelated to Sanzar. If it does, they are going back more than 6 years. HMRC would have to prove you had received money. Even if it was a loan, after 6 years it can't be claimed back.

Maybe SAnzar have shopped you though?

[flamel]

To bypass the investigation phase. HMRC want to be able to say you owe us £200,000 unless you proof otherwise rather than having to do the actual leg work and doing the investigation first...

However, with the "Accelerated Payment" wheeze, plus Direct Recovery of Debts (DRD), they can charge you upfront for anything they want, without any recourse to anybody except themselves and then help themselves to the contents of your bank account.

HMRC will helpfully tell you that there is no right of appeal to an accelerated payment notice, therefore you are at their mercy.

If HMRC should get it wrong, they will also helpfully point out that due to a recent court case, they DO NOT owe you a duty of care.

Oh - if you don't pay, they will charge you penalties, even if it turns out you didn't actually owe them anything. Again, very helpfully, HMRC get to keep these penalties.

It's just bad luck.

New investigation relating to 08/09?

I'm new, hello world.

Last week my accountant got a letter from HMRC suggesting what advice they might give to their clients who are being investigated. It was in relation to "Serial Tax Avoidance Legislation: effective from 15 September 2016."

When my accountant asked which of their clients HMRC had in mind, their answer was... me.

The trouble with that is, I'm not being investigated - not so far as I know anyway - and I certainly haven't participated in serial tax avoidance.

The only tax scheme I've ever been involved in was a three month period in 2008/09. The scheme was run by Sanzar. I've tried to find the paperwork related to it but struggled. My recollection is that it involved loans, but (a) I've never had a loan statement and (b) the illustration rubbishes the competition for using loans and explains that there will be partnership income. So, maybe I got that wrong. Whatever, at the time, I disclosed everything via the tax return (with support of accountant). I didn't learn of the DOTAS reference until later but also sent that in as soon as I did.

I've not heard a pip from HMRC since, apart from my accountants getting this letter more than seven years after filing the tax return.

Then I hear this story on Radio 4.

Obviously the next step is we've asked HMRC what they're talking about.

In the mean-time though, does anyone know what the modus operandi is here? Any suggestions where to go to get help?

Thanks
Dozy

[eek]

So if say you were paid in loans from 2008-2013 they could now write to you and say we believe you were also paid in loans from 2000-2008. Pay X or prove us wrong".

I don't know... I was merely stating why they may want to avoid investigations - the basis for how HMRC make assumptions is not something I want to speculate on...

[Invisiblehand]

To bypass the investigation phase. HMRC want to be able to say you owe us £200,000 unless you proof otherwise rather than having to do the actual leg work and doing the investigation first...

So if say you were paid in loans from 2008-2013 they could now write to you and say we believe you were also paid in loans from 2000-2008. Pay X or prove us wrong".

[eek]

Why would they change the law just to assess as opposed to investigate?

To bypass the investigation phase. HMRC want to be able to say you owe us £200,000 unless you proof otherwise rather than having to do the actual leg work and doing the investigation first...

[Invisiblehand]

Why would they change the law just to assess as opposed to investigate?

[ladymuck]

NO, it's not about investigations at all I'm afraid.

HMRC will on Monday get the power to ASSESS any unpaid disguised remuneration loans.

No investigation. They may ask for information but if that's not forthcoming they will guess the amount to be taxed.

Not the language used from about 13-14 minutes in. I guess your interpretation of the following (quoted verbatim) is different to mine:

"The tax man is usually limited to investigating the last four years, six if there has been careless behaviour. They can only go back further if the avoidance has been deliberate, in other words, fraudulent. That rule is about to be changed to give the tax man the right to go back 20 years in these cases, and that provision will be included in the Finance Bill that's being published on Monday."

I agree that the tone of the piece is the unfairness of investigating such old schemes after such a long period of silence.

[webberg]

BBC Radio 4 - Money Box, Backlog builds ahead of probate changes

About 10 minutes in... this is about the investigations into the loans schemes used to avoid PAYE/NI. The Finance Bill on Monday will give HMRC powers to investigate up to 20 years.

Estimated that about 40,000 contractors will be affected through application of today's tax climate to 20 year old cases...

NO, it's not about investigations at all I'm afraid.

HMRC will on Monday get the power to ASSESS any unpaid disguised remuneration loans.

No investigation. They may ask for information but if that's not forthcoming they will guess the amount to be taxed.

The programme was about the unfairness of HMRC in staying silent for years and then deciding that ALL contractor arrangements are tax avoidance. Promoters, agencies, umbrellas and clients get away with paying NOTHING and individuals pay it all.

That is not fair and that was the point of the Radio 4 show.

[EBTContractor]

This is just what is already known.

[eek]

BBC Radio 4 - Money Box, Backlog builds ahead of probate changes

About 10 minutes in... this is about the investigations into the loans schemes used to avoid PAYE/NI. The Finance Bill on Monday will give HMRC powers to investigate up to 20 years.

Estimated that about 40,000 contractors will be affected through application of today's tax climate to 20 year old cases...

[ladymuck]

BBC Radio 4 - Money Box, Backlog builds ahead of probate changes

About 10 minutes in... this is about the investigations into the loans schemes used to avoid PAYE/NI. The Finance Bill on Monday will give HMRC powers to investigate up to 20 years.

Estimated that about 40,000 contractors will be affected through application of today's tax climate to 20 year old cases...

[Tank]

Just a heads up for those interested. Just for info - I'm not impacted by any of this.