Reply to: HMRC enquiry into loan

[ASB]

I was looking at jsops. Joint Stock Ownership. Another form of ebt. It looks somewhat risky and highly artificial to me.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I bet very few people entered into these schemes off their own bat. I imagine they invariably heard about it from other contractor(s) who "sold" the idea to them.

Montpelier never actively sold their scheme; they relied totally on word of mouth. They didn't have a website or anything.

[ASB]

D15,

This will sound harsh. I used to think "how could anybody be so stupid".

Over the years this has been going and the descriptions of why and how people signed up my view has changed. Perhaps a little foolish by not doing Independent due diligence and accepting what seemed like reasonable assurances. Trust of those felt to know what they were doing, perhaps tinged with an unsceptical attitude.

anyway to answer your question "is a loan scheme illegal". No it isnt.

But that is not important.

The question is simply how that money is treated. Scheme promoters would suggest it is simply a genuine commercial loan. Not income in any way and not taxable. They may be right.

hmrc would basically argue that it was income as soon as it was paid into the trust and taxable. The fact that the trust chose to lend it to you is irrelevant. They may be right.

So it is not about legality. It is about the taxation treatment of the money flow.

it also seems you are unsure of your current arrangements. I would suggest that means run for the hills. If it is not straight paye income on your billings then I would very seriously consider whether that is an arrangement I was happy with. I may well be happy with a high retention rate. But would be deeply unhappy with the underlying storem brewing which will almost certainly arrive with a vengeance.

[northernladuk]

Can some one recommend an umbrella company with a good reputation?

If you are after just a standard, all above board umbrella you can't go wrong speaking to Contractor Umbrella. Lucy, the MD posts on here regularly and they've done a lot of work helping contractors and Umbrellas with upcoming legislation and the like.

PAYE Umbrella Companies for UK Contractors | Contractor Umbrella Company

Rather sadly, I used the search term Contractor Umbrella in google and all 4 paid adverts offered 90% take home. One of them was even 92%! Very poor state of affairs.

[D15]

He means a few £thousand each, assuming a few hundred in the group.

To fight HMRC all the way (FTT, UTT, Court of Appeal & Supreme Court) budget at least £½m

Again sorry about my lack of knowledge about this, but... Is the loan scheme illegal? As in getting paid a basic salary and a Loan?

If i select option 1 to pay any outstanding taxes on loans received will these be what i would have paid in the first instance or will they include fines etc?
If selecting 2 - what exactly will we be fighting for?

Can some one recommend an umbrella company with a good reputation? At this moment in time i am with 'company2' who more likely are 'company1' with a new name! Company2 state that they use a JSOP scheme rather than loans, can some one explain this please?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

2. Fight HMRC's view of the tax liability via the Courts. If you want to do that, best advice is to find a group already committed to litigation and which is not closed to new members. If you can't find one via Google, then ask the promoter of your scheme (or whichever company they've morphed into). That route is likely to give you an answer (good or bad) within the next 5 to 7 years. The cost is largely unknown as it will vary on how many people are involved but budget for a few thousand.

He means a few £thousand each, assuming a few hundred in the group.

To fight HMRC all the way (FTT, UTT, Court of Appeal & Supreme Court) budget at least £½m

[webberg]

Here are the options.

1. Settle the tax position. At the moment the only settlement HMRC will accept is to treat the loans as income in the year they are drawn, plus interest from that year.

2. Fight HMRC's view of the tax liability via the Courts. If you want to do that, best advice is to find a group already committed to litigation and which is not closed to new members. If you can't find one via Google, then ask the promoter of your scheme (or whichever company they've morphed into). That route is likely to give you an answer (good or bad) within the next 5 to 7 years. The cost is largely unknown as it will vary on how many people are involved but budget for a few thousand. Also see below.

3. Resist HMRC's view of the tax liability by seeking a settlement. There is no guarantee that HMRC will do this soon, later, ever. However HMRC has no judicial authority to lean on and recent political events may play a part, perhaps a bad part! Expect an answer on this before the end of 2018/19 tax year and budget for a few hundred pounds.

There are two big unknowns here.

First is the new political environment and what that may mean for the policy followed so far against contractors. My personal opinion is that it will be business as usual.

Second, there is a proposed new tax charge in all disguised remuneration loans not repaid at April 2019. That proposal is meant to be explained in a consultation paper to be issued this summer, but not so far seen. If that is introduced without amendment it may render all options invalid.

[jamesbrown]

Off the top of your heads what options would I have?

Settle it.
Fight it (and then win it or settle it).
Bury head (and then dig out, fight it, and win it or settle it).

That said, you should probably avoid the urge to over-simply and, instead, try to educate yourself by joining an appropriate group, such as BG. You could always change your mind later on. Better to arm yourself with the facts, rather than decide emotionally.

[D15]

I will look into the links you provided me this evening.

Off the top of your heads what options would I have?

[cliffordthedog]

And the fact they offered a loan didn't start the alarm bells ringing?

When your family accountant (me/brother/father) since the mid 1980's makes the recommendation for this approach then you think its reasonable. I used to take the advice of the experts around me.
Must admit I've become very cynical about advice from anyone in a suit..... and that includes me :-)

[DotasScandal]

Yes I assumed so. I would rather get this sorted the quickest and cost effective way I can.

You're not alone... you're together in this with many thousands.
Do your homework first, then go here www.wttbiggroup.co.uk

[regron]

50+ pages so will take some time later and have a whiz through. Could you give me a quick low down what big group is?

Unfortunately there is no quick low down. There is plenty of information on BG here:

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...big-group.html

However, your options etc.. are purely down to your individual circumstances. There are a lot of facts to take into account such as:

How was your scheme structured
How many years were you involved
What are your financial circumstances

Plus many, many more.

Please do take the time to read through as much as you can on this forum, even if it takes you a couple of hours. Whilst you probably won't find all the answers you are looking for, I guarantee you will have far more knowledge to allow you to make an informed decision.

Good Luck and welcome to the club !! If there is one thing to take from all this, you are NOT alone.

[D15]

There are very few groups fighting loan schemes. Big Group are the one everyone recommends.

They are a private forum which is handy. Remember CUK is public. HMRC read these forums.

Yes I assumed so. I would rather get this sorted the quickest and cost effective way I can.

[BrilloPad]

50+ pages so will take some time later and have a whiz through. Could you give me a quick low down what big group is?

There are very few groups fighting loan schemes. Big Group are the one everyone recommends.

They are a private forum which is handy. Remember CUK is public. HMRC read these forums.

[LandRover]

And the fact they offered a loan didn't start the alarm bells ringing?

Add into the mix slick salesmanship by Chartered Accountants and you may have a sense why some of us were not as careful...hindsight is wonderful.