Just received a pre APN letter for 07/08

[LandRover]

Well, these front line positions are not exactly filled by people attracted by the great pay or the prestige of the organisation... They attract certain personality types - those who enjoy having the upper hand on someone who has no choice but deal with them. Very common in civil service unfortunately.

And with governments obsessed with targets, I wouldn't be surprised that each person dealing in the APN teams has a target of getting APNs out as a percentage of cases on their desk. Targets & actuals figures would be used to see where the inefficiencies are in the HMRC teams. Any contrary information on this would be welcome.

[BrilloPad]

My brother-in-law was in Special Investigations. A deeply unpleasant character. Envious of anyone in the private sector who was doing well. A real chip on his shoulder. The only thing he liked about the job was the power trip. He said they loved it when they had wealthy taxpayers cacking themselves.

Same with my ex-wife. From what the kids say, she is part of the debt enforcement group that goes round people's houses to harass them.

She was a nice person until her kidney transplant.

[DotasScandal]

My brother-in-law was in Special Investigations. A deeply unpleasant character. Envious of anyone in the private sector who was doing well. A real chip on his shoulder. The only thing he liked about the job was the power trip. He said they loved it when they had wealthy taxpayers cacking themselves.

Family lunches must be a blast.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Well, these front line positions are not exactly filled by people attracted by the great pay or the prestige of the organisation... They attract certain personality types - those who enjoy having the upper hand on someone who has no choice but deal with them. Very common in civil service unfortunately.

My brother-in-law was in Special Investigations. A deeply unpleasant character. Envious of anyone in the private sector who was doing well. A real chip on his shoulder. The only thing he liked about the job was the power trip. He said they loved it when they had wealthy taxpayers cacking themselves.

[DotasScandal]

some kind of complex where they seem to enjoy the power they perceive themselves to have over the little people.

Well, these front line positions are not exactly filled by people attracted by the great pay or the prestige of the organisation... They attract certain personality types - those who enjoy having the upper hand on someone who has no choice but deal with them. Very common in civil service unfortunately.

[Dylan]

Well Mr Scandal, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one until I see evidence.

If your hypothetical officer did as you suggest, when this is announced to his superiors, he is toast.

Unless his "superiors" have suggested that enquiry letters be generated in cases where they were out of time. Turn a blind eye, get the money in, sorted.

I wouldn't put it past them, they are in the main thick, vindictive and nasty, and from my experience on the phone often with some kind of complex where they seem to enjoy the power they perceive themselves to have over the little people.

[webberg]

Well Mr Scandal, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one until I see evidence.

If your hypothetical officer did as you suggest, when this is announced to his superiors, he is toast.

[DotasScandal]

I've said before and I'll repeat that until I see some empirical evidence, I'm not a believer in this conspiracy theory.

No junior HMRC officer responsible for finding and sending a copy of an enquiry letter would alter it on their volition. It would be an easy matter to question, i.e. why does your version vary from mine? and if there is a suspicion of wrong doing, said junior officer is with P45.

That leaves a more senior officer breaking into the system and altering records. Again, I'm no IT expert but that would be relatively easy to ascertain? Again a sacking offence.

Then we have policy makers. If there is a written or unwritten policy to alter past correspondence, there are enough disgruntled, disaffected, demoralised junior staff through whom such a policy has to be executed that keeping it a secret would be impossible.

If I am presented with unequivocal evidence that this practice is happening and is condoned by HMRC then I will change my opinion. Until then, whilst distinguishing incompetence from conspiracy might be difficult, I'd prefer to believe in the former.

I look at this a bit differently. If I understand correctly, this was a guy who did not remember ever receiving a notice of enquiry so asked HMRC for proof. He later located the document in some old file, and the HMRC "copy" came shortly afterwards - with added wording!

What I totally could see happening is that the bozo at HMRC located the original Word document, noticed that there were some potential loose ends (absence of Section 9A mention) that could make it invalid, and took it upon himself to edit the doc, assuming that the "customer" did not have the original to compare to

In other words, it can be the personal initiative of an overzealous HMRC person, and doesn't automatically mean there is a conspiracy.

It is still a smoking gun of sorts.

To execute the above, there would be no need to break into systems - given that HMRC staff routinely produce "copies" that are no more than a fresh printout of an electronic document, I am sure it is possible to create an altered one without much effort.

With that said, I am sticking to my other "conspiracy theories" re the other aspects of the management of APNs, and have no doubt that in time, they will be exposed as conspiracy FACTS

[webberg]

I've said before and I'll repeat that until I see some empirical evidence, I'm not a believer in this conspiracy theory.

No junior HMRC officer responsible for finding and sending a copy of an enquiry letter would alter it on their volition. It would be an easy matter to question, i.e. why does your version vary from mine? and if there is a suspicion of wrong doing, said junior officer is with P45.

That leaves a more senior officer breaking into the system and altering records. Again, I'm no IT expert but that would be relatively easy to ascertain? Again a sacking offence.

Then we have policy makers. If there is a written or unwritten policy to alter past correspondence, there are enough disgruntled, disaffected, demoralised junior staff through whom such a policy has to be executed that keeping it a secret would be impossible.

If I am presented with unequivocal evidence that this practice is happening and is condoned by HMRC then I will change my opinion. Until then, whilst distinguishing incompetence from conspiracy might be difficult, I'd prefer to believe in the former.

[Dylan]

When you challenge the APN, they may magic a copy of an enquiry letter out of thin air that they supposedly sent you.

We've seen this. Neither taxpayer nor their agent received the original letter. When challenged, HMRC stuck to their guns that they sent it, and it's very hard to prove otherwise.

We've even had one case where a guy requested a copy of a letter they sent him on X date, and the copy didn't match the original. The wording "Section 9a TMA 1970 Notice" had been inserted in the copy. HMRC are still looking into how this happened.

Surely evidence of fraudulent activity within HMRC, we all know it is happening but nice to see some proof.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

When you challenge the APN, they may magic a copy of an enquiry letter out of thin air that they supposedly sent you.

We've seen this. Neither taxpayer nor their agent received the original letter. When challenged, HMRC stuck to their guns that they sent it, and it's very hard to prove otherwise.

We've even had one case where a guy requested a copy of a letter they sent him on X date, and the copy didn't match the original. The wording "Section 9a TMA 1970 Notice" had been inserted in the copy. HMRC are still looking into how this happened.

[DotasScandal]

Just received a letter for "end of the 08 tax yr" I have no open inquiry or followers notice and as well all know almost most of us only started receiving letter from 08/09 only. I have to say HMRC is really trying their luck!!

It might well be that you have an open inquiry but you never knew it. Maybe they sent the letter to your accountant and not to you. Or maybe they never did send anything. Seems to be the case for dozens of people.
In all cases, good luck challenging it. But by all means challenge it.

[philinlondon]

Just received a letter for "end of the 08 tax yr" I have no open inquiry or followers notice and as well all know almost most of us only started receiving letter from 08/09 only. I have to say HMRC is really trying their luck!!