Reply to: Joint action on APN

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Thank you.

Are the differences relating to the 'george settlement'? or is the george piece completely separate?

I probably should wait for the newsletter, right?

Nothing to do with the George settlement. There may be subtle differences depending on when a scheme was first implemented and whether it satisfied the DOTAS hallmarks of a notifiable arrangement.

The main objection to APNs, which all the JRs will probably cite, is that there is no right of appeal.

[mooren]

1. Joining a JR would not stop interest accruing. There is even a rumour doing the rounds that it would not stop penalties either*.

2. I think there are likely to be differences. But what they have in common is preventing HMRC enforcing APNs.


* we are currently trying to confirm this

Thank you.

Are the differences relating to the 'george settlement'? or is the george piece completely separate?

I probably should wait for the newsletter, right?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

DR (and of course everyone else that’s been working on this)... a huge thank you.

I have a couple quick questions (hope you don't mind) which might have been answered already but I'm not sure?

1. If we were to join and participate in the joint JR proceedings, and by a stroke of luck the APNs are deferred (for a period, 3, 6, 12 months… ), would we expect HMRC to charge interest / and be also be exposed to the HMRC ‘late’ penalties? Or would this action ‘freeze’ the process, interest and penalties?
   
2. Also is there any difference between this 'joint' JR and the one that (I believe) MP would be raising for MP members?

1. Joining a JR would not stop interest accruing. There is even a rumour doing the rounds that it would not stop penalties either*.

2. I think there are likely to be differences. But what they have in common is preventing HMRC enforcing APNs.


* we are currently trying to confirm this

[StrengthInNumbers]

I don't think interest will stop. Buy a tax certificate to stop interest.

Penalty is the main question for me as well.

[mooren]

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...ml#post2075534

DR (and of course everyone else that’s been working on this)... a huge thank you.

I have a couple quick questions (hope you don't mind) which might have been answered already but I'm not sure?

1. If we were to join and participate in the joint JR proceedings, and by a stroke of luck the APNs are deferred (for a period, 3, 6, 12 months… ), would we expect HMRC to charge interest / and be also be exposed to the HMRC ‘late’ penalties? Or would this action ‘freeze’ the process, interest and penalties?
   
2. Also is there any difference between this 'joint' JR and the one that (I believe) MP would be raising for MP members?

[lilikins1]

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...ml#post2075534

[DonkeyRhubarb]

More information on Saleos JR

http://forums.contractoruk.com/hmrc-...ml#post2075534

[lilikins1]

A customer enters an office.
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The owner does not respond.)
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Praline: (pause)I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Owner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this loan what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Isle of Man Contractor loan...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's taxed, that's what's wrong with it!
Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a taxed loan when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Owner: No no he's not taxed, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable loan, the Isle of Man contractor one, isn'it, ay? Beautiful interest-free!
Mr. Praline: The interest-free don't enter into it. It's PAYE taxed.
Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's repayable!
Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's repayable', I'll tell HMRC! (shouting at the phone) 'Ello, Mister Revenue! I've got a lovely fresh bit of IHT for you if you show...
(owner hits the cage)
Owner: There, he asked for repayment!
Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
Owner: I never!!
Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
Owner: I never, never did anything...

LOL

[webberg]

I'd rather have your (and other similar types') expertise on board please - there are a lot of accountancy firms who haven't got a Scooby doo about any of this but are charging money for advice.

You are correct.

I've posted on another thread my view of likely costs to get a resolution and have been thinking about that a bit since.

I may refresh that thread with those thoughts.

[Iliketax]

It s so true. there s defo scope for a monty python type like movie on HMRC. I wonder if the Ingenious partners are thinking about funding one ... the life of Hector.

A customer enters an office.
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.
(The owner does not respond.)
Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
Mr. Praline: (pause)I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
Owner: We're closin' for lunch.
Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this loan what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Isle of Man Contractor loan...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's taxed, that's what's wrong with it!
Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.
Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a taxed loan when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
Owner: No no he's not taxed, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable loan, the Isle of Man contractor one, isn'it, ay? Beautiful interest-free!
Mr. Praline: The interest-free don't enter into it. It's PAYE taxed.
Owner: Nononono, no, no! 'E's repayable!
Mr. Praline: All right then, if he's repayable', I'll tell HMRC! (shouting at the phone) 'Ello, Mister Revenue! I've got a lovely fresh bit of IHT for you if you show...
(owner hits the cage)
Owner: There, he asked for repayment!
Mr. Praline: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!
Owner: I never!!
Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
Owner: I never, never did anything...

[flamel]

That's a tricky call.

I'll declare an interest in that I spent 15 years designing, developing, delivering, defending tax planning structures for banks, HNWI and others. I've spent the last 12 months or so applying that knowledge in getting settlement for people who did them.

HMRC don't understand the structures and the nuances involved. They are focused on the "tax today" and not on the "tax tomorrow" or commercial elements (i.e. just because HMRC say it's not a loan, that's not how a lawyer may view it when it comes to unwind).

So, who better to explain this than the person who put it together and presumably knows how to take it apart?

I understand that it seems immoral or unethical for somebody who took a fee to get you in, is now taking a fee to get you out (at least partly).

You could go to another party but can you afford the time they need to spin up to speed on the structure etc? Quite a fine balance perhaps?

I'd rather have your (and other similar types') expertise on board please - there are a lot of accountancy firms who haven't got a Scooby doo about any of this but are charging money for advice.

[lilikins1]

I'd prefer to think of it in a more Monty Python type of way

I may send them a recommendation... imagine, all this APN palava would be perfect. So sir, can I have your money even do I'm not sure you owe it to me, bankrupting people left right and centre, all the Swiss Bank account holder fiasco with HSBC, company owners trying to commit suicide because HMRC got it wrong, all the stories are there to be played, no need to leave anything to the imagination lol

[lilikins1]

It s so true. there s defo scope for a monty python type like movie on HMRC. I wonder if the Ingenious partners are thinking about funding one ... the life of Hector.

[lilikins1]

I'd prefer to think of it in a more Monty Python type of way

It s so true. there s defo scope for a monty python type like movie on HMRC. I wonder if the Ingenious partners are thinking about funding one ... the life of Hector.

[webberg]

In fairness that is no different to the representative selected for this joint action who was involved in the creation of EBT schemes and now seems to have switched to defending them.

That's a tricky call.

I'll declare an interest in that I spent 15 years designing, developing, delivering, defending tax planning structures for banks, HNWI and others. I've spent the last 12 months or so applying that knowledge in getting settlement for people who did them.

HMRC don't understand the structures and the nuances involved. They are focused on the "tax today" and not on the "tax tomorrow" or commercial elements (i.e. just because HMRC say it's not a loan, that's not how a lawyer may view it when it comes to unwind).

So, who better to explain this than the person who put it together and presumably knows how to take it apart?

I understand that it seems immoral or unethical for somebody who took a fee to get you in, is now taking a fee to get you out (at least partly).

You could go to another party but can you afford the time they need to spin up to speed on the structure etc? Quite a fine balance perhaps?