Reply to: Rangers Tax Case

[EBTContractor]

99 % or this was from JP Morgan employees who were under a 3 line whip.

And also Henderson employees, a friend of a friend was stung for £40k on 10 year old bonuses.

[Not Losing Any Sleep]

Not sure, but by August 2014 they say that they have raised £800m from 700 employers under the EBT settlement opportunity.

99 % or this was from JP Morgan employees who were under a 3 line whip.

[Iliketax]

Anyone know what HMRC's EBT revenue estimation is?

Not sure, but by August 2014 they say that they have raised £800m from 700 employers under the EBT settlement opportunity.

[Boobetty]

I think Rab's point here is that follower notices work only where a case rules in favour of HMRC and do not work in reverse where a case goes against HMRC. I may be wrong though.

[webberg]

Why bother? Now they have APN's they don't have to prove anything. If they lose again and finally in this case, it's not like they're going to issue follower notices and give us all a refund.

The APN is a payment of tax in ADVANCE of agreement. The tax still has to be agreed at some point. It can't be left in limbo for ever.

Don't get confused over Follower Notices. A FN can be issued where your claim for tax relief is based on principles found to be ineffective in a finally decided case. There might be some argument about the principles (HMRC's subjective view), but the key is a "finally decided case".

On EBT/RT/loan/ToAA there is no such case so far and therefore no chance of a FN.
If HMRC do collect under and APN and subsequently the amount is deemed to be excessive, then HMRC is OBLIGED to repay. In my experience HMRC are diligent in this process and do go to some trouble to find people and refund cash. I'm saying that they return all the money (perhaps they never collect all the money) but they try.

I appreciate that those under the cosh assign base motives to their persecutors but to make progress here, you have to rise above that and deal with the agency on professional basis. It will always pay dividends to keep matters objective. Save the emotional stories for the press and social media. This is not meant to be patronizing and I have huge sympathy for all here, but by keeping matters in proportion and objective a better result on many levels will be achieved.

[Rab]

Obviously they are hoping that an eventual win means they can bully all EBT users into coughing up.

Anyone know what HMRC's EBT revenue estimation is?

Why bother? Now they have APN's they don't have to prove anything. If they lose again and finally in this case, it's not like they're going to issue follower notices and give us all a refund.

[EBTContractor]

Obviously they are hoping that an eventual win means they can bully all EBT users into coughing up.

Anyone know what HMRC's EBT revenue estimation is?

[lilikins1]

They re probably embarrassed about how much it s costing and L for loser keeps coming up for them

[Boobetty]

FOI limit is £600 and charged at £25 an hour. HMRC said the request would take 3.5 days so refused the request on this basis.

What is laughable is (if you work in public service close your eyes now) that it would take a day at most for an averagely competent private sector worker to compile this data. Factor in the flexi time, tea-breaks, 10-4 day and final salary pension scheme of your average civil servant and no doubt you can massage this to 3.5 days.

In any case they should have this information to hand anyway as part of management information, key performance indicators and the like. These have been part of our working lives for years, justifying our time, using cost centres, etc. etc. If these are also absent then, sorry HMRC, it is game over.

[centurian]

It is not usual for costs to be declared before a final decision. Once there is one, then perhaps a FoI request would work? Whilst sub judice however knowing how much has been spent might give the other side an advantage, i.e. are they running out of money and if I can extend the process, will they be forced to settle?

Which is probably a reasonable argument for rejecting an FOI - at this stage.

But they didn't take the easy option - oh, no - they claimed it would take too long to work out, which, if true, means they truly don't have a clue to the costs.

Which means someone should be fired for not having the slightest idea of costs (no-one will be).

Just typical that when they have a relatively easy get-out - they would rather take the option that makes them appear as incompetent.

Perhaps they feel they will lose, so want to keep the total costs permanently buried. Saying it costs too much to collate is an argument they can still lose after the final judgement.

[webberg]

Check this out LOL

Taxman will not disclose cost of Rangers case | Herald Scotland

We should join forces with the Rangers followers and put pressure into making HMRC explain what the hell they think they re doing

Very difficult to see what is going on. I think the Court of Sessions is still looking for a date/judge, having accepted the appeal. Daily listings of cases come out at very short intervals and HMRC website is not much better.

It is not usual for costs to be declared before a final decision. Once there is one, then perhaps a FoI request would work? Whilst sub judice however knowing how much has been spent might give the other side an advantage, i.e. are they running out of money and if I can extend the process, will they be forced to settle?

Hard to see in this case as HMRC have a bottomless pit of your money and the counterparty is already broke.

[lilikins1]

Anyone heard if there is any progress on HMRC's appeal?

Check this out LOL

Taxman will not disclose cost of Rangers case | Herald Scotland

We should join forces with the Rangers followers and put pressure into making HMRC explain what the hell they think they re doing

[EBTContractor]

Anyone heard if there is any progress on HMRC's appeal?

[famousfive]

I'm a Hibs supporter, and so anything Rangers related is normally anathema to me. I've never wanted Rangers to win anything before.

Even in these dark days its nice to see a bit of humour on a thread

[pimpernell]

I'm a Hibs supporter, and so anything Rangers related is normally anathema to me. I've never wanted Rangers to win anything before.