Reply to: HMRC Enquiries: Bedouin/Redstone

[Ph1com]

Update?

Is there any news or any updates regarding the HMRC situation with Bedouin/Redstone?

[thebear14]

Given the publicity surrounding other schemes requesting loan repayments, bedouin / redstone are still sticking to their party line that loans are repayable on the 10 year anniversary "should the company" call these in

[webberg]

Assuming HMRC issued them within the 4-year window, they'd be very hard to challenge because Redstone didn't put anything about the loans on the SATR.

You may know of other successful challenges but the only one I've seen is where there was a DOTAS number on the SATR.

I do know of other challenges.

For example, HMRC is obliged to make an assessment within a reasonable period of making a "discovery".

Nobody is really too sure about that period. Probably though within a year of making the discovery.

This has become known as the concept of staleness.

In the case of mass marketed loan schemes, when did HMRC know that they were being used, when did they know that a particular individual was using them, how long did they allow that individual to wait before assessing, why did they not ask for an SATR?

And so on...

We are gearing up for challenges on this.

[lowpaidworker]

Assuming HMRC issued them within the 4-year window, they'd be very hard to challenge because Redstone didn't put anything about the loans on the SATR.

You may know of other successful challenges but the only one I've seen is where there was a DOTAS number on the SATR.

Correct its a mess. My tax advisor "at the time" recommended by Redstone wronte back telling HMRC they were out of time. However independent advice "former HMRC Tax inspector now Tax advisor" said they have responded within the year window.

[DealorNoDeal]

However whether the DA (s29) is valid or not is a separate question.

Assuming HMRC issued them within the 4-year window, they'd be very hard to challenge because Redstone didn't put anything about the loans on the SATR.

You may know of other successful challenges but the only one I've seen is where there was a DOTAS number on the SATR.

[webberg]

Agree with this. The DAs make them open.

Correct.

However whether the DA (s29) is valid or not is a separate question.

[NeedTheSunshine]

Then it sounds like they're all open.

Agree with this. The DAs make them open.

[DealorNoDeal]

In 2015 they asked me to SATR for the years they told me not too. After each histrocal SATR they then issued the section 9a TMA 1970 or a discovery assessment (section 29).

Then it sounds like they're all open.

[lowpaidworker]

No.

Open means that HMRC has raised an enquiry.

That might be a letter mentioning section 9a TMA 1970 or a discovery assessment (section 29).

HMRC may argue that a less formal notice may also open an enquiry - to be debated in Tribunal.

So 2011 HMRC wrote to me saying no need to do a SATR.

In 2015 they asked me to SATR for the years they told me not too. After each histrocal SATR they then issued the section 9a TMA 1970 or a discovery assessment (section 29).

[lowpaidworker]

As webberg says, no.

However, you mentioned that you got APNs, which presumably you had to pay? HMRC can only issue APNs against open years, which does suggest that they previously opened your years.

No that was an EBT through Edge. They issued an APN in 2015 post Rangers for a tax year 09/10 and 10/11 (to Dec 10). From Dec 10 everything moved employer loans. From 2011 Edge became Redstone.

And I said once i got the APN in 2015 I moved away from Redstone. Damage done by then as i have 4 years... maybe open maybe not. Per GW comment above.

[DealorNoDeal]

if they were with Redstone then they were never disclosed on a SATR. So i think that would class them as Open ?

As webberg says, no.

However, you mentioned that you got APNs, which presumably you had to pay? HMRC can only issue APNs against open years, which does suggest that they previously opened your years.

[webberg]

if they were with Redstone then they were never disclosed on a SATR. So i think that would class them as Open ?

No.

Open means that HMRC has raised an enquiry.

That might be a letter mentioning section 9a TMA 1970 or a discovery assessment (section 29).

HMRC may argue that a less formal notice may also open an enquiry - to be debated in Tribunal.

[lowpaidworker]

If you have closed years, with non 3rd-party loans, then it's worth arguing that they are outwith the LC.

For open years, as you say, removing the LC still leaves the underlying tax dispute, which means you'll probably have to cough up eventually anyway.

if they were with Redstone then they were never disclosed on a SATR. So i think that would class them as Open ?

[DealorNoDeal]

If you have closed years, with non 3rd-party loans, then it's worth arguing that they are outwith the LC.

For open years, as you say, removing the LC still leaves the underlying tax dispute, which means you'll probably have to cough up eventually anyway.

[lowpaidworker]

Hi all

So what are the updates on this. The legislation has expressed that 3rd party loans are out of scope from 2010 to 2016 if no investigation and if you fully disclosed.

Last time I spoke to redstone via email they advised me that the scheme I was on with Bedouin was not 3rd party and intact a direct loan therefore the loan charge is out of scope. However this doesnt remove the fact HMRC still calculate I owe them for years 2010 - 2013.

I called HMRC today and told them them that I was not paid via a trust or 3rd party and if they still think I'm in scope that I would fall in to the category that no enquiry or investigation was made and that I have been fully cooperating with them and that both myself and HMRC have agreed to suspend until further notice. This whole loan charge though seems to have got me caught up in it. Anyone else in the same boat ?

Yes. I was with Redstone for 5 years. Left 2015 after getting my first APN. HMRC believe the tax is due. Simply put if they can't apply the loan charge they wil still come after you expecting you to settle. You should get advice.