Reply to: The Scottish Play

[mudskipper]

I've been thinking that about him & Osborne for a while

Whatever floats your boat...

[doodab]

Was thinking the same thing about Cameron!

I've been thinking that about him & Osborne for a while

[scooterscot]

Was thinking the same thing about Cameron!


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[doodab]

So how do countries like New Zealand & Denmark & Norway do it?

They don't elect pillocks like Salmond for a start. Well, maybe NZ does.

[scooterscot]

I can just see it, with the Peoples Democratic Republic of Salmonland, Cymru the scared sheep state, The Islamic state of Lutonstan.


we aren't big enough to break up the UK, we need to decide to spread the wealth yes but not break up.

So how do countries like New Zealand & Denmark & Norway do it?

[vetran]

I can just see it, with the Peoples Democratic Republic of Salmonland, Cymru the scared sheep state, The Islamic state of Lutonstan.


we aren't big enough to break up the UK, we need to decide to spread the wealth yes but not break up.

[doodab]

I do not agree. Capitalist activity is the saviour of the poor and always has been. The underground black economies of cuba and other oppressive regimes have kept the minds of people alive. The freedom to do a deal and sell should be the basis of stimulating life into economies.

I think you have capitalist activity and economic activity mixed up. Freedom to do a deal is a tenet of capitalism but it isn't an exclusively capitalist concept. The problems with capitalism as it stands are principally to do with the disproportionate value of capital in relation to labour and the resulting accumulation of wealth in the hands of those who already have it. Although there have been short periods where this trend has been reversed in the long term this disparity seems to be required to make the system work, and that makes capitalism as it stands ultimately unsustainable.

First, we need a pro-growth, supply-side economic policy targeted towards those who are suffering the most. Ideally, reforms would be national; we need an improved economy, more jobs and rising pay everywhere. If this is too much to ask, regionally targeted policies would be a big step in the right direction. For example, corporation tax could be abolished entirely in parts of the UK, including in some of the coastal or northern areas that have suffered the most deprivation.

Yes we do. But capitalism will not create them by itself. There is no incentive to invest unless the rate of return is higher than the risk free rate of return, which means it will be higher than the growth rate in the economy as a whole. Ergo, a disproportionate slice of any growth must be channeled to those providing capital, and that means that wages cannot rise fast enough (i.e. faster than either growth or inflation). The only way to free up money for wage inflation is to accept a lower rate of return on capital than the risk free rate, and the only people who will do that are governments who finance the whole escapade through borrowing from capitalists at the risk free rate, which means it costs more than they receive in return. This is clearly not sustainable is it.

the alternative is control and we know how that doesn't work.

That's an alternative. I'd hope it's not the only one. If it is we are ****ed.

Don't get me wrong, capitalism has clearly worked better than what has come before, but ultimately after being given a good run the flaws are starting to become apparent and it's reaching the end of it's tenure. Things need to evolve. I just hope the next step isn't backwards.

[scooterscot]

I don't have the answers. Would not claim to. But the problem is there for everyone to see. Taking the "We've always done it this way before" is head in the sand stuff.

[MicrosoftBob]

Can local councils be trusted with power?

The 'socialist firebrand' Derek Hatton screwed Liverpool just as much as Margaret Thatcher did - Comment - Voices - The Independent

It's ironic that he's turned capitalist since then and made quite a little business empire...

[MicrosoftBob]

I'm allright, I've moved up to Wales where they've rather cunningly decided that a devolved assembly and milking Westminster for all the money they can get is good enough

If you can't beat them join them...

[DodgyAgent]

But that won't happen until either capital is massively redistributed or the real rate of return on capital is made less than the rate of growth in the economy. The first option is unpalatable and the second requires the overthrow of capitalism with some improved system nobody has invented yet.



Quite. But even if they do decide on radical action try getting it past the voters. It ain't going to happen. What will happen instead is massive upheaval social disintegration and reorganisation. This is what happens when a method of social organisation fails.

I do not agree. Capitalist activity is the saviour of the poor and always has been. The underground black economies of cuba and other oppressive regimes have kept the minds of people alive. the freedom to do a deal and sell should be the basis of stimulating life into economies:

First, we need a pro-growth, supply-side economic policy targeted towards those who are suffering the most. Ideally, reforms would be national; we need an improved economy, more jobs and rising pay everywhere. If this is too much to ask, regionally targeted policies would be a big step in the right direction. For example, corporation tax could be abolished entirely in parts of the UK, including in some of the coastal or northern areas that have suffered the most deprivation.


the alternative is control and we know how that doesn't work.

[doodab]

20% of the US states are bigger than the UK anyway??


Linky

Indeed. What he is advocating could equally well be an argument in favour of a federal European superstate.

[darmstadt]

Too late.

The history books of the future will ask why London hoarded so much power in the first place.

Ukip are already on it with their Manifesto for Manchester:

UKIP has launched its 'Manifesto for Manchester' which would see the Department for Culture, Media and Sport moving north to the city.

[DodgyAgent]

20% of the US states are bigger than the UK anyway??


Linky

Not in population

[doodab]

I am not sure that rule will apply for much longer. It seems that there is a growing unease with politicians and ruling classes that is gathering a momentum of its own. The focus is turning towards creating wealth for everyone rather than just a few.

But that won't happen until either capital is massively redistributed or the real rate of return on capital is made less than the rate of growth in the economy. The first option is unpalatable and the second requires the overthrow of capitalism with some improved system nobody has invented yet.

rational politicians should accept that there is a major problem and that it is time for genuinely radical action

Quite. But there are plenty of radical politicians advocating radical policies. They are usually dismissed as nutjobs and don't make it into power. Even if the mainstream do decide on radical action try getting it past the voters. It ain't going to happen. What will happen instead is massive upheaval, social disintegration and reorganisation because that is what happens when a method of social organisation fails, and make no mistake, democracy + capitalism is creaking. The problem is we don't really have a viable alternative.....